Transcript - Episode 10: There’s Always Going to Be a Disconnect
Hey, It’s Me
EPISODE # 10
Hosts: Mike Sakasegawa and Rachel Zucker
Transcript by: Leigh Sugar
Transcripts formatted after those from Disability Visibility Project
Please note: transcripts are transcribed directly from recordings of live conversations; as a result, quotes and statements may be approximate and there may be unintended memory errors.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hey, it's me. So, I'm hoping that we are going to record later today. This is a very last minute message, but you asked if I knew what I wanted to talk about. And I do, I would like to talk about neurodivergence. And we could just leave it there and end this message here. Say, Hey Mike, it's me. I'd like to talk about neurodivergence. Let's do it. But, I'd like to give you a little more information about maybe what I think I want to talk about.
So I’ve wanted to talk with you about neurodivergence for a really long time. It's my sense that both you and I are neurodivergent, but in some very interestingly different ways. And that that's been a very positive part of our relationship for me. And that also, the ways in which we are differently neurodivergent have been helpful to me in terms of thinking about the relationships I have with people who are, whose neurodivergence is more similar to yours than to mine. So you're kind of like a safe person for me to explore some of these differences with. And that's been something I've wanted to talk about for a long time.
Right now, in the situation that I'm in, which is that my 23 year old son was recently diagnosed with Stage Four Ewing’s Sarcoma. And I’'m in the process of co-parenting my son, Abram, with my ex-husband, Josh. And, you know, navigating through the beginning of this, which has been this like very extreme emergency, terrifying, overwhelming, you know, moments of just like, inconceivable emotional and physical pain into a part of this process in which it's less of an emergency and more of this like, inescapable reality of what it means to have stage four cancer of this kind, what the treatment's going to look like, what kinds of practical decisions that are within my control that I can make and what kinds of existential situations that are outside of my control. And as I've been navigating this with Abram and with Josh and with my two other sons, I've done a lot of, sort of diagnosing of other people. And I, and I've, I sometimes feel a little guilty about that. Like I've, I've done a lot of diagnosing of my ex husband.
It really comes from a place of compassion, of wanting to be able to understand him in a way that can make me more skillful in how I approach him or respond to him and more strategic in a, in a kind way. But there's, there's some stuff I kind of wanted to talk about around like this urge or desire that I have to diagnose other people as a way of understanding them. That's one thing.
The second thing is, the place that I'm in right now, Abram and I are both kind of doing a lot of watching and judging of how other people are responding to this news. And I think that, you know, that's helpful, in the way that it's kind of a distraction from the way that we are processing and responding to this news. So like, our particular way, and I'm so grateful that Abram and my way in this regard is very similar, is we want as much information as possible, as much, like, of the reality, we want the numbers. Like, you know, Abram asked the doctor, so, are you telling me that I have less than five years to live? You know, what percentage of people, you know, with Ewing’s Sarcoma, stage four, survive beyond two years, three years, five years?
And, you know, we're using a lot of humor, there are parts of this that are very funny, and we kind of have this approach that, that like, I'm realizing not all people have, like a lot of people, you know, they, if you tell them they have cancer, or they tell, you can tell them like a million times, and they're just like, you know, they're, they show up at the doctor to get chemo, and, you know, the nurse will, will ask them about it, and they'll be like, yeah, I, I'm, I have a cough that won't go away, where really they have lung cancer, but they don't, they, that's not their coping strategy or style, is to not name it, not quantify it, if possible.
[5:00]
Not think about it in this way. And that's really the opposite for me and Abram and Josh and my other kids, to some extent, like we're, we all have a similar side style of wanting to know the truth of what can be known and then we just make these incredibly morbid jokes all the time.
And what I find very aggravating is people who kind of impose their own coping style on me or on Abram, and so they're like, you're gonna beat this thing. It doesn't seem like he is gonna beat this thing. There is no cure for Stage Four Ewing’s Sarcoma. And as brutal and devastating as that, you know, fact, is, and the emotional weight of it and what it means in real terms, I don't find it comforting at all for somebody to tell me they just know, they just know we're going to beat this thing, or, they're praying for us, and you know, you never know.
It's true you never know, like we're all mortal, we don't know what's going to happen, but there's something about taking away the information from me that I find very destabilizing and makes me very frustrated. I'm also aware of the fact that like, it's easier to be annoyed with other people and how they're handling it than to just be in the feelings around this. And then the last thing I'll say is, for now, is I find it really interesting to kind of notice some of these coping styles and how they over overlap with other kinds of diagnoses. And to think about which of these is neurodivergence and which of this is like something else.
So Abram has an anxiety disorder. I have, I guess what I would call generalized anxiety disorder, although that's been much, we have a different like way of coping with anxiety. So his is about distraction and like checking out, and mine is about like, the more anxious I am, I find a nearly insolvable, unsolvable problem, and then I solve it. And so this morning… I have to move very quickly from the apartment that I'm in to a new apartment. And I found a new apartment on Friday morning, just a few days ago. And I, I think it's going to go through and it doesn't have stairs. It has an elevator. It solves a lot of problems for me and Abram. But this morning I woke up and I was just, went into like such an anxiety loop about the fact that this door, this elevator, this, this building has an elevator, but it doesn't have a doorman and like, was it okay? Was it safe for me to move into an apartment with a door without a doorman?
And I just went into this anxiety loop that's very familiar to me that I couldn't get out of and I couldn't let it go. And I'm, I've had so much therapy. I'm so insightful. I knew what was underneath this anxiety, which was, I have a fantasy that having a doorman means having a strong male person who is there 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, whose job it is to help me and take care of me, but they don't live with me, and they don't have their own needs that they impose on me. And I don't have to take care of them. I mean, I get it. Like that's, you know, that's a fantasy, right? Of having like a husband, a partner in a very particular way.
And, but realizing that doesn't necessarily help me get out of the loop. And then I realized that actually, if I were to create a new crisis around this apartment, around the idea of needing a doorman, but not having one, and then like withdrawing my application from this apartment and being back in the situation of like frantically finding a new place to live as quickly as possible, that's what I do. That's how I cope. I like try to, to, you know, because that problem as big as it is, and it's actually a pretty big problem to find a new apartment suddenly in New York city, that problem is much more manageable to me than the moment that Abram said to me this morning, “I'm afraid to really want to live.”
[9:45]
Or, “When I think about not getting to watch my younger brother grow up,” you know, those moments, it's like a trap door in my heart opens and I fall into this chasm of grief that is so wide and deep. And I start to feel the fear and the helplessness and the sorrow. And I get flooded, you know, this is the part of me that has major depressive disorder and kind of the way out of that for me has historically been to be like, okay, the problem is I need a doorman.
That's not the problem. That's not the solution. You know, and actually, I don't need a doorman. Like once I went down the road of talking to like five different friends on the phone and really thinking about like, what does a doorman do and how, what, what real problems are there? How can I get those solved? What are the fantasy problems that this is bringing up? How can I think about those? Like, this is the way that from a very young age, I have become like an incredibly competent, efficient, high functioning person who otherwise would probably have been incapacitated by the amount of depression and anxiety that I feel.
And, and my neurodivergence, I think, is connected to my depression and anxiety and it has to do with my attentional experience and that I go from this like, obsessive hyper-focus to this kind of like, you know, free fall of like emotional flooding. The last thing I'll say, I know I said that already, is that some of the people who have been most helpful to me during this time, the most soothing, the most clear thinking, the most reassuring, the most helpful to me to talk these things through with have been people who are either diagnosed or undiagnosed, but clearly to me on the spectrum, and they have a certain kind of like less emotional, I'm not going to say flat affect, but a real kind of like, I'll say to someone I'm thinking about in particular, like, you know, “I didn't like it when the doctor said this, it's very, very unlikely that this is a curable cancer.” And then this particular friend of mine said, “What didn't you like about that? Was it too vague?” Whereas another person might start crying or might start saying like, “Oh my God, this is so horrible.” And I don't want that fucking shit. I don't want that like crying all over the place right now. I want, I actually really appreciated the question what didn't I like about that? Was it too vague? Because it was too vague. And that was really, that was, that was part of, like, I needed to be able to talk to someone on that level that I, that wasn't going to go into a state of hysteria and flooding and panic that I would then have to take care of them.
And so a lot of the people that have been most helpful to me recently have what I think of as, you know, autistic Asperger's spectrum, neurodivergence of, of, of, of one way or another. And yeah, so that's the much larger backstory of why I want to talk with you today about neurodivergence, but I'm also happy to just talk about it, in terms of you, in terms of your experience, doesn't have to be this whole thing, or we could have a two-parter. We talk about it once, we talk about it again. All right. Talk to you soon. Bye.
[Music]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I haven't had like a particularly great night's sleep in like three months, so [laughs], but you know, it is what it is.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, both of us are not at our best [laughs]. We've, but, but I don't know that I ever will be at my best again. So I, that's why I feel like when we have the opportunity to record at all, it's kind of my preference to just kind of do it and like lean into the informality of our show or whatever it is.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah. I think that, what our best looks like over the course of our lifetime changes. And not necessarily in a diminishing or growing kind of way, just a different kind of way. It looks different at different points in our lives and that's fine. So kind of is what it is.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
[15:00]
That actually is a good lead in [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Laughs]. Okay. All right.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Did you hear my message?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I did hear your message. It was very interesting to me. You wanted to talk about neurodivergence, and it's interesting to me, you know, you've said to me before that you, that you believe that you are neurodivergent in some way or another. It's not the first time I've heard you say that. It's always kind of surprised me when you say that because I don't perceive in you the sort of qualities that I associate with autism or ADHD, which, you know, is really means nothing because, you know, lots of people say that to me as well. And of course I don't have a formal diagnosis either, but I do have strong suspicions based on, you know, having lots of conversations with other autistic people.
So, you know, if I don't necessarily see in you the, sort of, a similarity of experience to what I think I experienced, that doesn't really mean anything, because neurodivergence isn't actually like a spectrum. It's more like a spectrum of, it's more like multi dimensional, because each sort of quality that gets associated with neurodivergence, whether that might be sensory issues or, strong sense of justice or, you know, communication difficulties or whatever, each one of those things is sort of on its own spectrum.
So it looks different from person to person. But I did kind of feel like a lot of the things that you were talking about in your message were also things that, it was interesting because you were talking, you said at one point, something along the lines of, it's kind of hard to know whether some of these things that you're describing are a neurodivergence thing, or whether they are a different but somewhat related diagnosis like anxiety or depression.
You know, for me, I think I often have a lot of difficulty sort of teasing out what of this is an autistic thing, what is a cultural thing or perhaps a family thing, what is just me, you know, like a personality thing that doesn't necessarily have to do with anything diagnosable. And that's a very, I think that's a very common experience for people both with neurodivergence and with all kinds of other mental and emotional health kinds of things.
But you, you brought the topic up. So where would you like to start?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, I kind of want to just like, say two things real quick. One, I don't know that I think I'm on the autism spectrum. In fact, I think I'm probably not. When I used neurodivergence, it's very much related to, in regards to myself, what you're saying now is, is a big part of that. I do think I probably would qualify or, you know, fit the diagnosis for ADD. I haven't been tested for ADD, but the more that I have friends who as adults have, have been diagnosed with ADD or have kids who have ADD, and it's a similar thing to what you're saying like, my old understanding of what ADD looks like, for example, always included, like, the hyperactivity, you know, like the ADHD. And so I always associated it with, you know, not being able to pay attention, not being able to sit still.
But that's not at all the case for many of the people I know, either adults, teenagers, or young people who have ADD. And that diagnosis has been quite helpful to them. And a lot of times it's like, I'm, this awareness of hyperfocus as being, for some people, a part of of ADD is new to me. Just the same way that my previous understanding of like what it looked like to be on the autism spectrum or to have autism or Asperger's. You know, when my kids were young and I have said this to you before, I think my oldest son, Moses, had he been even five years younger, for sure, we would have had him, evaluated and I, and I'm almost positive he would have been diagnosed as being on the spectrum. But at the time, he was born in 1999, and I feel like there was a shift or at least there was a shift in my understanding of autism and, one of the shifts was that I had this very sort of black and white sense that like people who are on the autism spectrum were not emotional, like at all.
[20:08]
And that's just not true, obviously, that's not something I really knew. And that's something that's like, more new to me. So I think that's part of why, when you a while back, mentioned this for yourself, I was like, I don't understand because Mike, you're so sensitive. You're so able to talk about emotions, your own emotional states, other people's emotional states. This was like a real misunderstanding that I had until somewhat recently, you know, that being on the autism spectrum doesn't mean you can't talk about emotions or you can't read them or you can't experience them. Like that's, that's really not, not the case.
And, and I've said to you sort of in, in jest, over the past few weeks, especially that like, whatever spectrum my ex-husband is on, I'm on a different spectrum, not just at the other end necessarily of the same spectrum, but like, and, and that, so when you're talking about like the multi-dimensionality of neurodivergence, that makes a lot of sense to me.
And then I just also wanted to say, yeah, this is just so interesting and confusing to me, how to, understand how to usefully understand the intersection between neurodivergence, personality, culture, context, like specific context and circumstances, and all of these other factors. And I wanted to tell you what to me is a funny story [laughs]. I mean, the “to me” is a very important part of this. We were in the hospital, this was maybe like a week or, or so into Abram being in the hospital and he, at this point he was still in enormous pain and I don't think we knew that it was cancer yet. We certainly didn't know what kind of cancer, but it, it was just terrifying and awful.
And there was this psychiatrist who was, I don't know what the right word is, like helping us, you know, who would come, and I have requested a psychiatrist for all kinds of reasons, including that Abram has an anxiety disorder and major depressive disorder and was on psychiatric medications and so we needed to make sure that a psychiatrist was, you know, part of this conversation when he was admitted to the hospital and in the hospital.
And she was great. And she did this like initial kind of evaluation and then she came back to check on us and did a like more in depth conversation. And she asked Abram early on, like, do you want your mom to leave the room? And he was like, no, I want my mom to stay. And she was like, okay. And so she went through all of these questions, you know, very in depth, thoughtful, thoughtful diagnostic and also just, you know, evaluative questions for Abram about his past and his present and what he understood of the situation and how he was doing and all, all of these kinds of things.
And, you know, I was sitting there and sometimes he would motion to me to answer the questions and, it was very in depth. Anyway, at the end of this evaluation, she sort of, asks him again, would he like to have a few minutes privately with her? Which, would he like me to leave the room? And he was adamant. No, he did not want me to leave the room. And so she said, okay. And she sort of leaned forward in her psychiatrist manner and said, Abram, is there anything else you want me to know about your family?
And I think she was asking, she was, you know, prompting a few different kinds of questions like, are you safe? Is there, you know, is there anything that I need to know about like, your home environment and your family and your family dynamics? And like, she was sort of trying to ask, like, what do you, like blink twice if you need me to get you out of this family? You know, I, not really, but like something along those lines. And so she said, is there anything else you want me to know about your family?
And Abram, totally deadpan says, yeah, we're Jewish [laughs].
And I laughed so hard and you know, it was such a interesting answer. I mean, it was a joke. First of all, it absolutely was a joke. And he's made some of really the best and darkest jokes in the past, you know, few weeks that I've ever heard. But also it was like, yeah, lady, you have to deal with us as Jewish people with the, and what that means to him is a certain kind of, you know, not to say all Jewish people have this personality trait or approach or desire or anything, but like what it meant to him was, we want to hear the facts, and we want to make really uncomfortable inappropriate provocative jokes about these facts, and we want you to get that. That's how we're fucking coping with this traumatic experience. And you need to know that in order to understand me and my family and in a way in order to treat or support us.
[25:45]
And so there was a way in which, like, some of the stuff that I'm thinking about as neurodivergence or personality or diagnosable, you know, other kind of psychiatric issues, you know, Abram identifies as being Jewish. And I don't quite know exactly, so, you know, that falls under the cultural stuff, but, you know, other people might say some of it has to do with being a New Yorker. Some of it has to, you know, which, you know, is close to being Jewish, but not exactly the same. So in any case, that was like a really long rambling thing.
But I think, I think maybe if I have to say what I most want to talk about, it's, I feel guilty when I, or I feel bad, I feel uncomfortable when I diagnose other people as being on the spectrum or, or when I try to understand someone else's behavior through a kind of DSM diagnostic framework. And I'm, I'm not quite sure what to do with that. And maybe I'm just asking you like, is that okay? Does that make me a bad person? I feel like I'm doing it for good reasons, but I also feel like, and I also feel like most people who have a diagnosis that, that helps them, don't feel ashamed of that diagnosis because it's helpful and helps them understand, you know, the way they interact with other people. And that's what I'm looking for is a, is a way to understand the way I am in the world and the way other people are in the world. But I'm, I'm, I'm like reverting back to this time in my life and in my kids lives where like saying, you know, publicly, like, yes, my son has an anxiety disorder, is like, not okay to do. Like there's something that's private. It's shameful. But I want everyone who treats Abram and cares for Abram to know this about him because it will help them take good care of him and understand him. And I think understanding is, is a, is a really important part of, of relating to someone else and being a, you know, a good caregiver and a good parent and all these other things.
So I, I think that's kind of like, you know, the publicness or the privateness or the shame or the liberation and usefulness of, of these diagnoses, even if they're not perfect. I think that's kind of what I want to talk about.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, so, obviously, I'm not a mental health professional, and I'm not an expert on any of these things, which I know you're, I know you know that and you're not asking me in that kind of capacity. I just, you know, for the hypothetical listeners, I just wanted to make that very clear [laughs]. What I can say about this is a few things.
The first is, just to sort of reiterate the, some things that you said, I think that especially for people our age, people who, you know, came of age in the ‘80s and ‘90s, right? I think that there was a lot of stigma at that time about diagnoses and the general sort of mindset around diagnoses about mental health and neurodivergence diagnoses was like, you're gonna, you're labeling me and you're putting me in a box, and I don't want you to do that. And that was also very similar to how people approached medication, psychiatric medication during the ‘90s that like, oh, you just want to like drug me out so that I don't feel anything and so that I'm a zombie and a robot to make me more manageable for you, kind of thing.
And I think that our understanding of all of this stuff as a society has matured a lot since then. I mean, there are still definitely people who hold those attitudes, but in my experience, it is most often people who are our age or older. I think that this thing that you said, about the diagnosis being helpful - most of the people I know who have some kind of a mental health diagnosis or a neurodivergence diagnosis find it very useful because it is a lens through which you can understand yourself both on a practical level, like you can say, you know, I have an anxiety disorder or I have an obsessive compulsive disorder or I have a certain type of neurodivergence, that has practical things where you can use that to change your own interactions with yourself and with others. It also has a certain, comfort to it where you can say, oh, I'm not just weird. Like this is a thing that's known, right? So there's benefits to having these diagnoses. And almost everyone I know who has some kind of a diagnosis finds it useful in those ways. Fnds it a net positive. There, there are still stigmas attached to mental and emotional health disorders, and there are still stigmas attached to neurodivergence. But I think that in general, I think our cultural understanding of these phenomena has matured a lot over the past 20, 30 years. And I think that's great.
[31:08]
There is currently, especially online and especially on TikTok, a controversy around self diagnosis, where there is this argument playing out between people who feel that self diagnosis is valid and it is like a way of understanding yourself, you understand yourself in ways that no one else can, and if this is something that helps you understand yourself and move through the world, then it is valid. I, whenever I talk about neurodivergence in respect to myself online, I'm always very clear to say, I do not have a formal diagnosis. I, I just have strong suspicions based on my knowledge about these, these conditions. And I will have people push back on that and say, self diagnosis is completely valid, and if you think you are autistic, you probably are.
On the other hand, there is also a very strong current of pushback against that where people say, self diagnosis undermines real diagnosis, and it diverts attention and resources away from people who actually need it, from people who are essentially, they don't put it in these terms, but essentially being hypochondriacs, right?
Most people don't actually put it in that kind of terms, but you know, there is a way of using diagnosis, of using the DSM, or, you know, other psychiatric diagnostic tools, kind of like a form of astrology, right, that like, you know instead of saying oh, he's such a Taurus, you know, they'll say oh he's like, he's on the spectrum, you know. And I think that there is, while I don't necessarily agree that this is actually harmful to people who need a diagnosis, I don't actually think that that's true in my limited experience, I do, and I also don't agree that it, that like, influence or culture in general has made it trendy to have a diagnosis or to self diagnose or to understand yourself to self apply these, these labels. I don't really think that that's true. ut I think that there is something that is kind of interesting about the way that I think culturally, in some of the ways that these things have become destigmatized, or at least less stigmatized, that there is a sort of way that people apply this lens that isn't really all that different from how they apply things like astrology, or the Myers Briggs test, or, you know, Enneagram, any of these other kinds of things, right? I think that there is a similarity. And whether or not that is something that's harmful, I don't really know. And honestly, I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing, in much the same way that I don't really think that, like, you know, saying to somebody, oh, you're, you know, you're really acting like such a Virgo right now, I can really tell that's your sun. Like, I don't really think that's a harmful thing to do. I mean, sometimes it's obnoxious, but most of the time it's fine, right?
I think where the danger comes in is, is that if we're diagnosing, diagnosing ourselves, is I think mostly kind of, has not a lot of consequences for other people. Diagnosing other people, you know, when you're not a qualified professional who is, you know, in a diagnostic setting, I think that it does sort of, it just sort of, I think it depends on the, like what you're doing with that, right? What a person does with that information, because I think that the danger of a diagnosis, and this is true, whether it's a formal diagnosis or an informal one, is that because of people being the way people are, there is a risk of that becoming totalizing, right? There is a risk of saying to oneself, well, I know that this is a thing about this person, and so therefore I don't have to look at anything else, you know?
[35:26]
It's kind of like the way, and this is a real issue in, in our, our health system, where like, if you're fat, for example, and you go to the doctor, then they won't even bother looking at any of the other things oftentimes. They won't order any other tests. They'll just say, well, you need to lose 40 pounds and then, you know, if you're still having a problem, come back and we'll, and we'll figure it out. And so it's this, this thing that prevents us, rather than it being a way of connecting us to someone else, it's a way of preventing that connection, you know, or it can be for some people, but I think that, you know, used in a different way, it can also be a very powerful tool for empathy, compassion, and connection. So it all just kind of depends on what we're doing with it I think. Does that make sense?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. I'm, I'm a little hesitant. I have a bunch of questions that might be too personal for you.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I'm pretty open. I can always say no.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Yeah, you can. I've thought a lot about, especially in the past few weeks and months about the ways in which, and we've talked about this, like there are ways in which I identify very strongly with you, and then there are ways in which I really don't identify strongly with you, but I identify with your descriptions of your previous or current romantic partners. And there are ways in which I, sometimes you say things to me in the messages or, you know, when we're talking that really sound very similar to my ex-husband. And there are other ways in which you and I are very aligned and, and we both find certain aspects of my ex-husband's behavior to be hard to understand.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: To put it mildly [laughs].
RACHEL: To say the least [laughs]. Right. And so I, I’ve just been thinking about like, you know, and also I've been thinking about my own romantic life. And even though you and I are not romantic partners, I, I've been thinking about the way in which my ex-boyfriend Michael was the opposite of my ex-husband in so many ways, like, and much more like me in the ways in which like this, like, real lack of emotional containment, a real propensity to be flooded. And I think it has to do with, you know, depression, anxiety, childhood trauma, PTSD, and just like the, the way our brains and coping mechanisms and coping styles developed. I think Michael and I are very similar in some of those ways. And Josh is very different in other ways.
And I've been thinking about like, how being your friend, and being in a friendship relationship with you, an intimate platonic relationship with you, and recognizing the ways in which your support is very grounding for me, and also seeing those kinds of qualities in you, in other people who are also extremely supportive and grounding to me right now is kind of helping me with Josh, try to appreciate some of the similar qualities and also try to, I'm trying to think about like, what I'm looking for in a partner at some point. And part of me is like, you know, what works for me is someone on the spectrum, in very particular ways. Like, like that's a plus for me, certain parts of those qualities, whether they’re personality traits, you know, or, or things like that.
And so one of the questions I was going to ask you, which is weird and funny, is like, if you were going to have to pick a diagnosis for an ideal romantic partner for yourself, what would it be?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, you know, this is something that I have thought a fair amount about because I think that there is something to the idea that neurodivergence, it's not like, it's not a disorder in the way that other things are often considered. It's not really a disease or a disorder. It's just kind of the way that you are, you know? It's kind of the way that it, it sort of sets the parameters for how you take in information about the world and how you understand things, how you think, right?
[40:02]
And there have been times when I've thought to myself, many times when I've thought to myself, being able to have a shorthand with someone would be really useful, especially because, you know, one, this is a very common thing for people on the autism spectrum that it, it feels like everyone else in the world does have this shorthand, and we don't. So, you know, this has to do with just like the way that intuition and context work, right? I think for a lot of neurodivergent, a lot of autistic people, that context is not something that, context that other people take for granted just isn't there, right?
But, like, let me give you an example. A really common experience that autistic people report is if we're talking to, and I keep saying we and I don't, I hope that doesn't piss anybody off, but this just sort of is how I think about it, right? If we're talking to a neurotypical person who is expressing some sort of distress, right, who is talking about some kind of difficult thing that they're going through, it's very common for a [neurodivergent] person to then share a story where they also experienced something similar, right? And the way that, and then that often causes a problem because the neurotypical participant in this interaction will, will interpret that as, why do you have to make this about yourself all the time? Like, why can't you just, why can't it be about me? Like, why do you always have to do this? And the neurodivergent person will be a little bit flummoxed by that because the whole point of sharing this commonality is to say, is to try and demonstrate in a meaningful way, like, I understand you and I feel compassion for you. I empathize with you because I've been through something similar and so I'm trying to show you I understand this thing that you're talking about, right?
This is something that has happened to me over and over and over again in my life, this exact conflict. And it's something that I have learned over time how to, how to try and communicate I understand, without making it sound like I'm making it about me. But that was a thing that took me probably 30 years to figure out how to do that. And I, I, and it's still, I don't, it's not perfect, you know. On the other hand, in the other direction, if a neurodivergent person is expressing some sort of distress to a neurotypical person, oftentimes what will happen is that neurotypical person will say like, oh gosh, I'm sorry, that must be really hard. And, you know, or something along those lines. And because they're not actually demonstrating that they understand it in a meaningful way, the neurodivergent person will feel like, this is, why are all of these interactions I have with everybody so shallow? Why are they so surface level? Why is it that like, like, why doesn't anybody actually understand? I just get these platitudes, right?
So in either direction, the interaction winds up being very unsatisfying, you know, kind of isolating, divisive, and unsatisfying. And I have thought to myself many times, like, if I were to be in a romantic relationship with a person who is similarly neurodivergent to me, maybe I wouldn't have this kind of conflict. On the other hand, I think, you know, I would probably just have a different conflict [laughs]. And in that way, it's actually a similar, like, as I was saying before about, you know, what of this is cultural? What of this is neurodivergence? What of this is my specific personality? What of this comes out of my family history? What of this comes out of my region? There are all those questions as well.
Like as much as I have thought to myself, maybe I shouldn't date neurotypical people, you know, I've also thought to myself, maybe I should stop dating white people, you know, like, because there are other, there are experiences that I try to have conversations that I have tried to have with, both in romantic and non romantic platonic relationships that can be very, very difficult to have with white people, especially with white women, I have found. And then, then I'm left wondering like, okay, how much of this is me being like, neurodivergent? How much of this is me being a man and, you know, being sort of an unaware, privileged man about this? And how much of this is them being a white person, how much of this is them being neurotypical and unaware about these things.
And in reality, it's probably a combination of all four of those things and more, right? I don't see these things to try and dodge my own responsibility for my part of the interaction, but I kind of, where this ends up leaving me is like, it might be easier in some ways to be, you know, dating people of color, or to be dating neurodivergent people.
[45:12]
But at the end of the day, there's always going to be a disconnect, no matter what, right? Like, at a minimum, if I'm straight, then I'm going to be dating women. That's always going to be a big, a big point of divergence between our, our experiences. And in some ways, I'm not sure that gap can ever be fully bridged, no matter what else we have in common. So yeah, I don't know. I mean, I do think about it. I'm not sure I have a specific answer. I don't know if that answers your question, but it is something that I've thought a lot about.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Do you think in your own life and experience that it's better, I don't, that's not the right word that it's advantageous or I don't know to, I'm focused on romantic relationships, but it's really, it's not just about that.It's about, you know, who intimate relationships, whether, but not familial, not blood relative. So intimate relationships, platonic or non platonic, whether those, the people who are most sustaining to you are the ones who are the most similar to you, or the ones who are whose, whose qualities compliment yours in ways that are because there's a difference, right?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, I think that's a pretty difficult question to answer. In a lot of ways, and again, I'm not sure if this is, like, specific to me or not, but you know, I often think to myself, like, how I end up thinking about other people, I'm often paying more attention to the differences than the similarities, you know, I do have friends, people, friends who are people of color, right? I do have friends who are queer. I do have friends who are not, not queer. I'm saying like, if we're talking about ways people are similar to me, I have friends who are people of color. I have friends who are straight. I have friends who are men. I have friends who are from the same place that I'm from.
But there is always another way in which I have a lot of difference from these people, you know, like you and I, you're one of my closest friends. I think we do have a lot in common, but you know, it doesn't ever escape me that you're a white woman and I'm an Asian man like that never goes away. Right? And it is always something that I, that I have on my mind when we're interacting with each other. Not like that it's at the front of my mind all the time, but just that it, that there is some low level background awareness of it all the time.
You know, in terms of my romantic partners, a hundred percent of the women that I've been with romantically have been white women. And you know, sometimes I wonder like, you know, is this me making the same mistake over and over again? And then I think, you know, well I don't know if that's fair, that's maybe not fair to them, maybe that's, you know, whatever, but I don't know that I ever actually feel fully comfortable around people, and to the extent that I do feel comfortable around people, I think it has less to do with me feeling like we have something in common and it has more to do with me feeling like that person is willing to accommodate whatever differences exist between us.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think that when we talk to each other, I am also aware of the gender difference between us, you know, racial difference. I think I'm also aware of this thing, I feel, I mean, I'm exaggerating maybe a little bit, but I feel like a lot of the times when I leave you, like, if we were to compare the messages that we leave each other, the tenor of my emotional expressivity is quite high compared to yours [laughs]. Let me put it that way. And there's so many reasons for that, right? Like there's gender, there's race, there's, you know, background, there's all of these things, but like, and then there's the fucking situation, right? It's just like the circumstances, like, it's not surprising that a lot of my recent messages to you, I have broken down crying or, you know, but let's be real, like I did that before. And, you know, you have not, you do not tend to leave me messages in which you are sobbing, for example.
[50:00]
Your messages have a lot of emotional content and, and I don't find you to be repressed emotionally or, withdrawn or withholding. I feel that you are very insightful about your own emotional state and others, but your expressivity or the tenor or the tone or the volume, I don't really know what to, what to say about it. But I do feel that it's like very present for me in our relationship, this feeling that I have that I'm like this uncontained, exploding chaos of emotion, and that you are not [laughs].
And that this is a, this is a big difference between us. And I think that in my marriage, my perception of like, I have a very hard time maintaining boundaries with other people. And I, I'm constantly thinking about like, what is the other person thinking and feeling?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Just to ask the question, when you say maintaining boundaries, do you mean that you have trouble enforcing your own boundaries or respecting other people's boundaries?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Oh, enforcing my own.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I'm so sensitive to other people's boundaries, affective states, imagined affective states. So if I perceive that a person like, like, you know, Josh has a lot of boundaries, like he doesn't, you know, like to be touched without reason or, or like to someone say before, you know, before they touch him, like, I'm going to put my hand on your shoulder. Like I learned over the years that like, if I were to just like, I would never go up and hug him. I would never grab him. I would never like, without preparing him for that. That's not how I feel. Those are his boundaries as I perceive them. And so I try very hard to respect those boundaries, but yeah, yeah.
So I guess I'm saying… I'll give you an example. I sent an email to my neighbors where I live currently in, in New York, inWashington Heights. I'm soon about to move, but I really, really like a lot of my neighbors and there's a list serve for the block that I live on. And I told them that Abram has cancer and, you know, that I'm probably going to have to move. And it's like this really awful situation. And I also said, I would appreciate if when you see me, I would prefer a nod and a wave to a hug and, and a question because I might be in the headspace where I'm on the phone, or I'm just not able to, you know, I'm, I'm having trouble dealing with other people's reactions when I'm not in the headspace to do that.
And I'm really glad that I took care of myself in that way, because my neighbors are, a few of them have sent me emails that I don't find helpful or texts, you know, I don't find the response, you know, I'm praying for you every moment. My heart is breaking for you. This, I can't even, there are no words. Like I get very literal about those things. I'm like, okay, number one, if you're praying for me, you don't need to tell me if it's going to work, great. That's your business. Keep praying for me. Great. I love it. But like, don't tell me, what do you, what do you want me to do with the whole, like you're praying for me?
The whole, like you can beat this thing, not helpful to me because probably not like, given the information and the facts and the statistics, but like probably not, you know, or like my heart is breaking for you or my heart goes out to you. I get very weird about it. I'm like, gross. I don't have your, keep your heart in your body. Like it's, it's, I'm weird about it. Like I, I get very like the language annoys me, you know, there are no words. You just used words to tell me there are no words. Like, I don't know why I get, I don't like that. You know, or if somebody is like, you know, hysterical themselves. I'm like, I don't want to have to deal with your hysteria. Like, and I find myself reassuring other people. I find myself in the past few weeks telling people like, like people who are so upset about this. It's usually people who don't know me very well and don't know Abram. And they're just, it's like their worst nightmare. Of course, it's their, it's everybody's worst nightmare to have a kid this sick, right? And so, but then they, they, they start crying and then I have to fucking deal with their crying. And then I end up hearing myself say stuff like, you know, this is very, this is very shocking news to you, but I've actually, you know, it's been unfolding for me over the course of the past few weeks.
[00:55:00]
Like, why am I, why am I trying to make them feel better? It's bizarre. Okay. So, you know, I don't like those, those responses are difficult for me right now. And so I took care of myself by sort of saying, like heading it off at the pass, right? Being like, I would prefer a wave and a nod to a hug, you know? And, and I, and I told this to Josh and I said, you know, he's going back to teaching. And I said, you might want to send a similar email to your colleagues to let them know what you want. And at first he was annoyed. He was like, I don't even know what I want. How would I know in advance? And I was like, well, do you like it when people hug you? And he's like, no. And I'm like, right. And do you like it when people come up to you and start crying? No. You know, so maybe, like, tell people, don't, like, I don't, I don't prefer that right now. And you know, he may or may not do that. That's obviously up to him.
But it's sort of losing my train of thought, except to say, my feeling is that I'm always trying to like, you know, figure out what someone else wants and needs all the time. It's like something I can't turn off. I don't have as much experience until recently speaking as clearly and directly and honestly as possible to other people about what I would need or want or prefer. That's new for me. But I'm, especially lately, I'm, I'm learning to do that, to communicate those things. And I guess, you know, this like imaginative empathy for others is something that Josh doesn't have, and certainly hasn't had for me. And I, I, I kind of long for, you know, like long time ago, I heard a book review. It was a book, maybe you know what this book is, I never ended up buying it, but it was a husband who realized he was on the spectrum and, and made like all of these rules and guidelines for himself in how to approach his wife who was neurotypical. And it was things like, when she comes home ask her about her day in this way.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I think it was something like, The Journal of Best Practices, something like that?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes. Yes. And I always like, I, I told Josh about this. I was like, would this appeal to you? Like you love rules. You love fairness. You love guidelines. If they're like, not if I tell him to do it, like that doesn't work. you know, but like, would you want to come up with your own set of guidelines? Like, I'm not, I'm not the biggest mystery in the whole world. Like I'm just a person who has preferences, like in, you know, I don't know, I don't know where I'm going with this. I got completely turned around.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: To just sort of like hit on a few things that you were saying. So, you know, one of the things I think a lot of people have a misconception about when it comes to neuro divergence and autism in particular is, as you were saying that people who are autistic don't have emotions, or they don't have an emotional affect. That's not necessarily the case. I think another thing, so this, this idea of a journal of best practices, every person on the spectrum who I've ever talked to about this or who I, you know, who I've heard talk about it, has something like this, right? Because, because the world is such an incomprehensible place, especially when you're young, and people are just constantly responding to you in ways that are just bewildering, that everybody that I know who has talked about this kind of thing has a certain, maybe not a literal written down book, the way that this man did, I haven't read the book, but I heard about it on “This American Life,” I believe it was.
It's actually funny. That episode of “This American Life” was one of the first sort of steps along my journey of like, oh, hey, maybe I'm autistic. I mean, this was probably 15 years ago, right? But in any case we don',t most of us don't keep a literal paper book of best practices. But everybody has it up in their sort of mental Rolodex, you know, like if this then this and it's not necessarily always best practices. It's also things like, if a person does this, it means this. If a person does this, but then there's this variation, it does, it means this. Things that neurotypical people just sort of intuit and they don't know why they know these things. A lot of autistic people, certainly myself, you have to go through a, like a concrete, analytical process of figuring these things out. And for me at this point, I don't have to do that as, like I can jump to the end of the story a little quicker, like I don't have to do it step by step anymore, but that's because I have decades of practice, right?
[59:56]
That having been said, you know, all of us that I know of, have that, that, some form of that, list of best practices in our heads. But the key thing here is, is that it's something that's there to benefit and protect ourselves kind of thing, not really to benefit and protect other people. And to the extent that a man wants to make a journal of best practices relating to his wife, that's because he wants to to do something for his wife and also because he wants to protect and nurture his own relationship so that it doesn't end, right? And I think that this is the thing, right? A person can be autistic or neurodivergent in some way, and also just be an asshole. Right? [Laughs]
RACHEL ZUCKER: Thank you for reminding me of that [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You know, like a person, it's not necessarily like, neurodivergent people often display very high levels of empathy, to the point where they're, it's a problem, right? That is also another misunderstanding that people have about neurodivergence, but, not everybody does, you know, so you can be autistic and also lack compassion for other people. That is a thing that happens, you know.
Another thing that I sort of wanted to touch on was this, this thing that you're talking about, where you're saying that you have this sort of hyper vigilance about other people's emotional states, that is also a very common neurodivergent trait. And it, it, for people with, with an autism spectrum disorder, I believe that it typically is caused by, it's a self defense mechanism, right? It is a way of saying, like, how can I manage this situation? What do I need to pay attention to in order to stop these things from happening to me? Ultimately, it's about a feeling of safety.
But this hypervigilance is not necessarily something that comes from neurodivergence. Rather, it is something that I think, in many different ways, in many different, for many different reasons, root causes, comes from a feeling of need, needing to be in control of the situation in order to be safe, right?
And so for example, a person who has complex PTSD also often displays this sort of hypervigilance, right? Whether or not they are neurodivergent, a person who has abusive or neglectful parents, a person who either in a romantic relationship or in a friendship relationship or in a family relationship does not have a feeling of emotional safety will also display this type of hypervigilance, right?
So it doesn't necessarily come, it's not necessarily a neurodivergent thing, rather it is in all of these cases a, a response to the trauma of being unsafe, right? So when I hear you talking about this sort of emotional hypervigilance and a difficulty with maintaining your own emotional boundaries, well, first of all, like I have a lot of compassion for that because that is something that happens for me as well. But also it doesn't necessarily read as something that is neurodivergent to me, right?
And then the other thing that I wanted to talk about, this thing that you're talking about with the way that other people respond to you, right? To your situation, this horrible thing that you're going through, right? This is something that again, I really wonder a lot - is this an, how much of this, because I do the same thing right, and I will say to myself like, how much of this is a neurodivergence thing how much of this is a me thing, right? Because I think that oftentimes people who do the kinds of things you're describing where they'll say, I'm praying for you every day, I'm so devastated, right? I think what they think that they're doing is they are offering you something, right? They're trying to, to say like, well, if I were in this situation, I would want to know that everyone was thinking of me and that I wasn't going through this alone. Right?
RACHEL ZUCKER: I hate things. I hate. I don't. Ew, I hate the idea that everybody's thinking about me in this. Sorry. Yeah, keep going.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: It’s true. It's true. It's not necessarily helpful to you. It wouldn't necessarily be helpful to me. I think that for, for many people, that is like literally what they want, which, you know, if you think about it in a certain way, like human beings are communal animals. We are social animals. And so safety for us oftentimes has to do with a coming together with the community so that other people can protect us from predators or whatever. Right? That makes a certain amount of sort of evolutionary sense. On the other hand, I think the way, what you're describing your response to this, and how I often feel as well, one of the big difficulties for me, is that these people are not, they're not doing what they think they're doing, right? What they're actually doing is asking you to hold their feelings, right? They're asking you to make them feel better, which feels extremely unjust in the situation where it's like, okay, I know normally my response to this is to take care of other people, but when is it going to be my turn? When is it going to be my turn for someone to take care of me?
[1:05:23]
Right? And especially in a situation in a lifetime of, of maybe this has never happened for you before. There's certainly been very few times if ever that I've felt in my life that it's, it was my turn where someone would take care of me.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yep.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: And so it's really upsetting when it's like, I'm at my worst right now. I'm at my worst and my weakest and you are asking me to do something for you? Like I cannot believe how callous you are being, right? And I think one of the things that's a difficulty for me is that I kind of think both of these things are true at the same time, right, that most people, including myself before I had this one like really specific experience with a very specific therapist to show me that that's what I was doing to other people many, oftentimes, right? Most people are not actually able to understand what they are doing. Most people don't actually think about what they, what, what their end goal is, right? What their actual, their purpose in a communication is. And this is something that when I get into arguments, particularly with romantic partners, can be very challenging for me because I'll say, why did you say that to me?
You know, like, what is it that you're trying to accomplish by saying that to me? And they will just say, I don't know. I don't know why I said that. I just needed to say it. I was just expressing myself. And I said, I will say something like,expressing yourself to what end, right? What do you want to have happen because you said that, right? And most people cannot answer that question because they have literally never thought about it and have no framework to understand themselves and why they do the things that they do. What is the need that they are trying to fill by the behaviors that they're expressing?
I think that that is very true, very frustrating, but I also think that it's true that many people do respond by saying, you know, knowing that I'm in someone else's thoughts is comforting, you know, knowing that someone cares about me is comforting, right? Knowing that someone is thinking about me. And I think that it is also true at the same time, while it is true that they are asking me to take care of them, that they are also trying to give me something. And there isn't really a resolution there. It's just a tension that can't really be resolved, which is difficult. And when you're at your worst, and when you're at your most vulnerable and your weakest, is an additional strain trying to sit with this unresolvable tension. But I think that, I guess what I'm trying to say is I get you [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. And you know, as you're speaking, I, I also hear the inconsistencies in what I'm actually saying and feeling. And, you know, there's a lot, it's very messy, you know, like I actually would love to know that the Dalai Lama is thinking about me, even just like, abstractly. And I think he probably is. I very much like knowing that the monastics at the Zen Mountain Monastery in Mount Tremper are, are praying for me and Abram. I asked for that. I want that. I, that does make me feel good. So it depends on the person. It depends on the circumstance. It, you know, and I was going to say like, maybe I should write a journal of best practices for how I want to be treated. You know, I'm pretty, I have a journal of best practices for how I think every person in my life wants to be treated. Some of these are probably very accurate and some of them are probably not. But that's something that I've constructed, you know, for a lot of reasons, you know, some, most of what you've mentioned already, but I don't, you know, I, I've tried to communicate to others and I guess I'm wondering if you do this as well, but like recently I've tried to communicate to my closest friends and to my family, like this is what I want. Like, don't try to help me in ways that I have not consented to. Like, let me ask for help. Trust me that I will ask for help. I am asking for so much help recently. And please make sure you take care of yourself first and foremost, so that when you do help me, I don't have to feel bad about it. I can accept this help with an open heart, without worry, you know, that I'm asking too much, you know, and I have so little that I can control right now.
[1:10:12]
And so when somebody tries to help me, but really what they're doing is they're going behind my back or they're trying to make things easier for me in ways that actually diminish my control over the things I can control, it's extremely painful and enraging. So, like, these are the kinds of things that would be on my journal of best practices of how to help Rachel, or how to treat Rachel, or how to care for Rachel, uou know, in loving ways, if you even want to, and if you don't just fucking go away, like, I don't need it. I don't, I don't need it. It's fine. I have enough people, you know, I don't know.
So I guess I, I'm like split because on the one hand, I just so love this idea of a system. I just love it. I love the idea of like being able to give people, you know, here are the five things that if you know these things about me, you can, you can be on my team. And if you don't know these things or you keep, you know them, you hear them, but you just can't participate in these ways, then just like, please give me a lot of space and just don't, just don't try to help me, just know there are other people are trying to help me. So I love that idea. It's so comforting to me. It's so, it's so appealing to me. Like, if I just communicate clearly enough with other people, I can get what I want and need. They can get what they want to need.
And then I come back to the messiness of the reality, which is that like, one person can say, my heart goes out to you and I just, I just feel so loved. And another person can say, my heart goes out to you and I'm like, gross, this is disgusting. Your heart doesn't. Thank God your heart doesn't actually, it just stays in your body where it should be [laughs]. You know, so I love the idea of systems. I don't know if they actually, they actually work.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, I think the problem with trying to systematize human interactions, and like human behavior and emotions, is that there are just too many variables, you know, there are too many variables to track. There are, I think that's one reason why, you know, that guy calling his, journal, The Journal of Best Practices, you know, that's an engineering term, or maybe it's a legal term. I don't know. But like best practices isn't the same as, as saying, this is a guide to success. It's saying, you're going to have the best shot if you do this, but there's still going to be places where it breaks down because there are just too many variables, right?
A lot of how you, when someone says exactly the same thing to you, maybe even in the same tone of voice, how that strikes you is going to, it's going to have a lot to do with the totality of your experience with each other. It's going to have a lot to do with their affect, it's going to have a lot to do with your specific state of mind and emotional state in that moment. What else has happened to you right before that engagement? And there are just too many variables to actually write them all down. Like the flowchart for that would just be, you know, even constructing the flowchart would, would, would be the work of a lifetime, you know, or more.
You know, I think one of the things that is also difficult is that, you know, there have been a lot of times over the course of my life where I have asked people, please do this or please don't do this. And for whatever reason, that doesn't end up happening. And I'm, you know, I think that in some of these cases, that at least part of it has to do with that person doesn't actually prioritize me or care that much about how these things impact me. They care more about the inconvenience to themselves than they do about, you know, having any kind of compassion towards me.
That is definitely a thing, but I'm unwilling to say that that is the totality of it as well, because I think a lot of people are generally well meaning, even the people that hurt me over and over again. And I think part of it, you know, also has to do that, one, most people are not very good at remembering systems. They're not very good at remembering details. They're not very good at seeing themselves clearly and what it is that they're actually doing. Most people are thinking a lot more about their intentions than their execution or impact.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: And also, I think that, and this is something that I think is more of a neurotypical neurodivergence split, is that a lot of people who are neurotypical, don't say the things that they mean, right?
[1:15:03]
They say something that is perhaps tangential to what they mean and sometimes even opposite of what they mean, but they don't actually say the thing that they mean, right? And moreover, because they are used to, most of the people they're talking to, not saying the thing that they actually mean, when someone says the thing that they actually mean, they will interpret it as something else, right?
Like they will interpret it as like, I don't know, a very common thing that's happened to me is like, I might say, Hey, I'm not upset right now, but if you continue doing this specific thing, I probably will get upset. So could you please stop doing that? And that is exactly what I mean. In that moment, I'm not upset yet. And yet what that person will hear is, I'm furious already. Right? That's just one example, but if, and if I say, like, I would like you to do this this way, then maybe what they'll hear is I'm trying to control you, or maybe what they'll hear is, something, something related, but that isn't actually what I said, right?
And so that understanding, I think, is also a difficulty that happens. People, when you give them instructions like this, are just often not very well equipped to do it, even in stuff that has nothing to do with interpersonal interactions or feelings, you know, even stuff like people, what people do for their jobs, you know, like a big part of what I do at work has to do with, you know, following certain sets of instructions because this is the way that, you know, the company has decided will be the best practice for this. And yet, even though we are all engineers and ostensibly we are all people who are used to thinking about things in systemic and systematic ways, a lot of people still have a really hard time following the instructions. And so there's a lot of corners cut and there's, things aren't done the proper way. And that's just a thing that happens, you know, cause I think most people are not really capable of following instructions.
So when you ask, like, is this a thing I've ever done? Yeah, it is a thing that I've done. And I think that it's also important to do, right. Like, I think that if you don't ask for the things that you want, it's very unlikely that you'll get them, much less likely. But there's also this recognition that it's like, no matter how many times I ask or how many ways I phrase it, most of the time, most people are probably not going to meet me where I need them to. And there's a disappointment to that, that is an additional hurt on top of everything else.
RACHEL ZUCKER: All right. I have a question.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Is there anything that you can think of that you would like me to do or not do in our relationship with each other? I, I feel very open and interested in instructions from you [laughs]. And I will really do my best to remember them. This is something I tend to be good at.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Rachel, this is like the worst possible time for you to ask me [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Including that I stop asking you questions like that, especially at the end of the episode. That could be something you would ask for [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't need you to do anything differently. And I don't even really want you to, and then, you know, there are a lot of reasons for that, you know, like part of it is just my, you know, part of this is just my own insecurity, right? That I have a general difficulty with anything, like asking people for anything is hard for me. The idea that anybody is going to have to go out of their way for me is just intolerable. And there's, that's partially a Japanese thing. It's partially, partially a me thing. I don't know. It's hard for me, you know, and especially in a situation where I know that the person that I'm talking to that's asking me this question is in a point in their life where an additional burden is like, a lot.
RACHEL ZUCKER: But it's not a burden. It's it's actually not, you know, it really feels like the opposite, because I feel like what we've just been talking about for over an hour is that like, people are often trying to help, and sometimes their best intention is, you know, is there. But, you know, I can stop doing things that might be annoying and I, you know, and, or I could do things or I can't, but at least knowing what they actually are for you. It feels very, it helps me feel safe in the relationship and it, and I think we already do this with each other a lot, and a lot more than we do with other people, which is, you know, to be as clear with each other as we can about what we like and don't like and don't like, and, and what helps us feel safe and not safe. So I, I think there's all, I mean, I think this is part of the foundation of our friendship and our relationship, but I guess I'm just reminding you that I am someone who would like to know these things from you if and when they occur.
[1:20:06]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I think that a lot of what I, a lot of the relationships that I have with my friends, the ones that feel the most satisfying to me and the most safe to me, are ones where I just feel like I can take the person as they are. And I think a lot of, this is something I've said to you in previous personal messages, private messages that we haven't talked about on the show, but I think a lot of difficulty for me when it comes to the difference between friendships and romantic relationships has to do with the degree to which I need a person to do a certain thing a certain way in order for me to feel okay, in order for me to feel cared for, and the part of that has to do with also the sharing of physical space, you know, and part of it has to do with just not wanting to feel like a weirdo in that, and the way that I need to be cared for by people people in different relationship configurations.In general, I don't feel like I need my friends… I don't need as much specificity from my friends as I do from my romantic partners. And that's something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about. Like, is that fair? Is that fair to my friends or is that fair to my romantic partners, to need more from my romantic partners than may be reasonable; to not give my friends the opportunity to show me that they care about me.
But I think that, you know, with my best friendships, and I would include you in that, it's less about, it's again, this is going back to something I said at the beginning. It's less about like specific practices and more about a general trust that this person is going to accommodate my specificities, right? That this person is going to like see my quirks and weirdnesses and not reject me for that.
You and I have, you know, as you've alluded to, there, there are a lot of things that we align on and there are some pretty profound things that we don't. And yet for whatever reason, that doesn't feel threatening to either one of us. And I think a big part of that has to do with the fact that we're not in a romantic relationship and that we don't need the same level of alignment from each other.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So if you're asking me if there's something that you can do differently, I don't think that there really is because that's not the nature of our friendship. Does that make sense to you?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. So much sense. Good answer [Laughs] All right.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Are we going to insert tagline here? [Laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Exactly. Okay.
[Music]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You've been listening to Hey, It’s Me with Rachel Zucker and Mike Sakasegawa
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hey, It’s Me, is a production of Rachel Zucker and Likewise Media.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Editing on this episode is by Mike Sakasegawa. Music is by Podington Bear, and transcription help is by Leigh Sugar.
RACHEL ZUCKER: You can find more information about the show, including contact information and transcripts, at heyitsmepodcast.com
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: If you'd like to hear more from us, you can find Rachel's other show Commonplace, at Commonplace.today.
RACHEL ZUCKER: And you can find Mike's other show, Keep the Channel Open, at keepthechannelopen.com. Thanks for spending this time with us. Take care.