Transcript - Episode 12: Beard or No Beard
Hey, It’s Me
EPISODE # 12
Hosts: Mike Sakasegawa and Rachel Zucker
Transcript by: Leigh Sugar
Transcripts formatted after those from Disability Visibility Project
Please note: transcripts are transcribed directly from recordings of live conversations; as a result, quotes and statements may be approximate and there may be unintended memory errors.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Oh my god, I loved your Star Trek sex message, so much. And I, it made me think so many things, including, mostly I agree with you completely, but there were a few ones where I didn't. And also, so interesting because I was like, well what about the women? And then I was like, what does it even mean for a woman to be good in bed? And I was like, wow, that's fucking blowing my mind that I don't quite, like, why is it so much easier to think about it for men? Oh, man! Fascinating! Fascinating!
And then I thought, well, maybe we should talk about this for our next episode for a few reasons. First of all, it's super fun. Second of all, one of the reasons that I thought maybe we could talk about this on Hey, It's Me is because neither one of us is currently in a sexual relationship, and normally, you're, you're all like gentlemanly and appropriate, unlike me, so you won't want to talk about sex, like your current sex life, but you don't have a current sex life. Well, you don't have a current partner. Maybe this is a great time for you to talk about sex with me on Hey, It's Me.
Just, just throwing it out there. Okay, bye.
[Music]
RACHEL ZUCKER: Where do we start?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay, so, first thing is, in your message, you were describing my message as my Star Trek sex message [laughs]. I feel like, because I don't know yet if I'm going to put the whole, the whole thing in. I feel like I just need to clarify for our three listeners that -
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hey guys! [Laughs]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: That what I was doing in the message I sent you was going through the male presenting characters on the various Star Trek shows and Giving my impressions about whether they would be good in bed. So, and this came out of because I had been, I've been watching Voyager recently and you know I'm just about to finish up the second season right now, and it's one of those shows that I actually have never watched all the way through. And at least in the early seasons, Tom Paris is presented as this total Lothario, which first of all, there's only like a hundred, maybe 200 people on this ship, like, and he's like sleeping his way through the whole, that's weird. But I got to thinking like -
RACHEL ZUCKER: Are you slut shaming Tom Paris already?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: No, I just think that being in a, in a closed system like that, you know, that might present a lot of issues. I mean, who knows, by the 24th century, maybe people are able to have casual sex in a scenario where they're going to have to keep seeing that person over and over and over again for the next 70 years. And that's not a problem. I think it might make it awkward for at least some of the people involved, but in any case, I was just wondering to myself, like, is Tom Paris actually good in bed? And I just cannot bring myself to think that he is. And that led me to thinking about all the rest of them.
So I had posted this long thread to Bluesky where I went through every character, every male character or male presenting character in all of the Star Trek shows that I had seen, which is basically all of them except Prodigy, which is probably fine to exclude that one, because as far as I know, that show is all kids, and I don't want to do that.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah, gross. Agreed
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: As an aside, I got into this weird, weird interaction on Bluesky, because, you know, I did say, like, I did include Wesley and I said, all I said about Wesley was, that is a child and we're not doing this. And somebody started arguing with me about this [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So yeah, that's where, so we could start, if you want, you know, to just make this funny.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Let me throw out some questions. Let me throw out some questions. Oh, sorry. No, go ahead.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, we could -
RACHEL ZUCKER: I like funny.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: We could just go through, You know, and talk about the various characters and whether or not we think they'd be good in bed. But what were you just gonna say?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, I was gonna say I mean, oh god I mean, just to take all the fun out of it, I'm I'm interested in women, Not that way, sadly for me - but yes -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yes, herosexuality is a real -
[4:57]
RACHEL ZUCKER: It's just the fucking worst but like, and then I, because I started thinking well, you what about the women? And then I was like, well, what does it even mean for a woman to be good in bed? And I was like, whoa, where does that thought come from? That's super weird.
But so then the second question is like, you know, you're, you're answering the question in some ways in your message, like, what does it mean for a man or a male presenting person to be good in bed? A lot of it seemed to be about, and I appreciate your, your sexual cosmology, a lot of what it's, pleasing his, their partner, seems to be part of what, how you define a man being good in bed, which I would say has not historically necessarily been, you know -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, I'm trying to look at it from like, the perspective of their partners, right? Like would their partner say that they're good in bed? And my supposition is just that in general with anybody, if they're going to say whether or not their partner was good in bed, it's going to have something to do with whether or not they found the experience pleasurable.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right. But that's like, that's already such a supposition that I'm not sure.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't think most men actually care that much about whether or not they are good in bed for anybody else.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right, and I would say that historically, the question is not usually, is the woman good in bed? The question is, is she fuckable?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Sure.
RACHEL ZUCKER: And that usually is defined by, is she attractive, or is she available? You know? So -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Do you want to know why I didn't include any of the women?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: It's because I can't, I just think that that would be gross for a straight man to be like judging women in that way, even in an attempt to make it funny, it just seems disgusting to me. Like, it just seems like a creepy thing to do.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay, I'm going to tell you a very brief anecdote, and then if you want, we can go back to talking about the Star Trek people one at a time, okay? [Laughs].
So I went on a date, I think I told, I didn't tell you about the date, but I went on a date with somebody, a man who's 65, 69, excuse me. Isn't that a funny, sexy number? Okay. So he asked me, which is a question I like from men on a date, this was a, I had had a, I try to always do a FaceTime or a video date with someone before, you know, meeting in person, for a lot of reasons. And so we'd had a FaceTime date and then we met in person and we were sitting in Washington Square Park and he asked me, What is good sex to me, which I think is a great question to ask, at least I'm open to that.
So like, depending on if the person is open, it's a good question to ask and I'm open to that. And so I started saying all this stuff. I don't know where this came from, but I started to say to him that in my experience, there are men who are heterosexual, but who don't actually like women, and that I can feel that in my interactions with them, both sexual and nonsexual, and that in general, the men who I think don't really like women, even though they want to fuck women and they're heterosexual, you know, for the most part, they're not so good in bed, because there's something that they don't like about women, and so they don't really want to be close to women or they don't want to deal with women's bodies or, you know, something, or, it's like a whole power play that ultimately underneath it has a kind of like anti-woman feeling, which can be sexy but also can feel unsafe. And also I've had enough experience with men who don't like women to know that it's not, it's not for me.
And so I was like telling him all about this and he's nodding like a nice, you know, man nodding, yes, yes, these men who don't like women and, and all of a sudden I was thinking, I hate men, and most cis straight women that I know hate men, really, really. And I would not have said that about myself 10 years ago or 15 years ago. I, I, I'm really, my feelings about men as a group are at an all time low, well, maybe they'll get even lower, but so far, a real low. And I just was thinking about how unfair this is for me to go around talking shit about men who, you know, sleep with women and want to be in relationships with women, but don't really like women.
[9:58]
They're like, they're, like, they think they like women, but they're really deep down they're like, you know, they've got more than their fair share of sexism and misogyny, the misogyny being the greater problem than the sexism. And then I was like, why do I think it's completely and totally okay for all the women to just be like, yeah, I really wish I were attracted to women. I like women much more than I like men. I've had it with men. I, I don't really have that much respect for men for the most part, but yeah, but I sleep with them, when I can. I was like, why, why has this become okay?
So I don't know. I'm just starting to feel like you're like, oh, it would be gross if I, if I talked about whether the women were good in bed, and I hear you, but why is, why is it okay for me to talk about the men? And why is it okay for me to be in heterosexual relationships when I basically think men are [sigh].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, this is like the whole thing, the whole question of reverse racism, you know, does reverse racism exist? Right. And I don't think that like having a personal bias absent some kind of structural inequality is, you know, or, or rather to say that like, having a personal bias when you are a member of an oppressed class against the class of people who are oppressing you is not the same as the other way around. It just isn't. I'll also say, I don't actually think most men actually like men either.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. That's a good point [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You know.
RACHEL ZUCKER: That’s a really good point. Yeah. There, there's a part of me that's like, who are these men who don't like women? Women are so much better. What do you like? Do you like anybody? If you, you know, like, sorry.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't think that they do like anybody.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Oh. And then, and then it seems very complicated to be a man, because if you don't really like other men, and you don't really -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: This is why men kill themselves all the time [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: [Laughs]. This got so not sexy and not funny. So fast.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah. Well -
RACHEL ZUCKER: I think it was my fault.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, you know -
RACHEL ZUCKER: Can we go back to the sexy?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: We can, we can try to [laughs], let me just say also like, I, yeah, I mean, it, it's a bummer. Men have a mental health crisis in ways that are at least very different to any kind of mental health crisis that women are collectively having, and it's largely self inflicted, or almost entirely self inflicted, both because we are the ones who maintain, created and maintain the patriarchy, and also like we collectively have decided that like going to therapy and talking about feelings is a sign of weakness and we're not going to do that. Like, yeah, it's shit. Right. Cause like
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right. Cause like I could, I, I have trouble with my body because of the patriarchy and internalized misogyny and all that stuff, but I don't hate myself, and I don't, I don't hate femininity. Whereas a lot of men I know really hate that they're, that they're, they're masculinity or hate, you know, they certainly hate toxic masculinity.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, if I'm being honest, I'm like, I, I wish I weren't, you know, like, I wish I weren't a man, you know, cause like, I would much rather be like, I don't know, a lesbian. I think that would be -
RACHEL ZUCKER: I would want to be a gay man. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I could deal with that too. That would probably be my second place, you know, but being like a cis straight man I'm like, yeah, no, I do hate myself.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, that’s my second choice. I'd be a cis straight man. I would love to be a man, but then I would probably hate if I were a man, I would probably hate it.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, I'm not asking anybody to feel sorry for me. Like, it's like, yes, boohoo. You're at the top of the social hierarchy in almost every way and, and like, and you feel bad about it. Poor you. Like, sure [laughs]. But I mean, I said this to you before, like, like, I'm, I'm actually grateful that I'm not a White person because it's like, you know, my race is like the one aspect of my identity where I can not hate myself for it [laughs]. That's it. It's actually much more comfortable in, in, you know, not being part of the, you know, quote unquote superior caste in that way. There's a comfort to that.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay. Okay. Here's a question.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: We're getting, we're never going to get back to the fun part of this [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: No. Okay. Okay. Well, I wanted to ask you in the abstract, because I'm not trying to ask you to talk about your own sex life.
[15:02]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, I don't have a sex life right now, but sure we, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not going to name names or anything, but sure. Like I can talk about whatever you want.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay. Okay. Well, you know, I love talking about my own sex life and I love talking about your sex life, but I can, I can put it also back to Star Trek, which is to say, what's the relationship between being good in bed and hating or not hating yourself, or hating your gender identity, your sexual orientation, your, yeah. Do you think, what do you think about that?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, this actually gets to something that I was going to bring up anyway, which is that I don't think that in any general sense, there is such a thing as being good in bed. I think there are lots and lots of ways to be bad in bed. I think being bad in bed is a, is a thing. And so I think that, like, hating yourself and being ashamed of yourself and being ashamed of your body and your sexuality definitely can contribute to being bad in bed, but I don't think that there's any general way to be good in bed. Part of this may just be because I haven't had that many sexual partners. So maybe I'm just talking out of my ass. But I don't think like -
RACHEL ZUCKER: Is that a euphemism? [Laughs]. Sorry, keep going.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't think like because what everybody wants out of a sexual encounter is individual, right? I don't like what, what one person would find to be like just a mind blowingly wonderful experience might be traumatizing to someone else. Like I have a good friend who's really into kink, and what she is into would, would, like, I, I would feel so uncomfortable with. And, and like she's into, you know, rough sex and degradation and being submissive in that way. And that, and that's, and like, if I had to, like, if she and I were doing that and I were in the Dom position in that, like, I would, I would feel terrible, right?
Or the other way around. If someone did to me what she wants done to her. Like, I would, I would legitimately be afraid, you know, and that's just me, right? That's like, I'm not trying to like kink shame her or like, cause we've had conversations about it. I'm not like, there's nothing wrong with what she likes. It's just knowing like, that's like entirely different from what I would find to be a good and satisfying sexual experience, right? And so like, I don't think that good in bed really means anything. I think the best that a person can do is to be… Dan Savage has some kind of, like, alliterative…
RACHEL ZUCKER: GGG!
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yes. I don't remember, I know one of them is game.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I think it's giving, game, good, yeah, anyway, yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: But I mean, I think basically, like, being open to learning what your partner wants, Being open to giving and receiving, and being attentive, you know, being attentive to both what your partner says and also what they, like, how they are responding in the moment, like being attentive to the physical and emotional experience that your partner is having in the moment. I really think that that's kind of all you can do. And, and a lot of this is based on the fact that for me, like the first time I have sex with someone is never the best time that I've like, you know, that, you know, sometimes the first time is good, but you know, it, a few times later, after we've had a chance to get to know each other and get to know what we're like in bed and what we like in bed and that kind of thing, it's better, you know?
RACHEL ZUCKER: First of all, it's good giving and game, but, I, you're, you're describing my experience as well, which is why I have nothing against in theory one night stand, but I just don't, I just don't know that it's so satisfying. I, I told you about the experience I had with a very good looking man, which by the way, I do think that a certain kind of handsomeness is almost always inversely proportional to good in bed in my experience in men, but I yes, I had a, probably my only what true one night stand, casual experience with a man who is very good looking and was GGG enough. But not enough to go back.
But in part, like, yeah, I just, afterwards I was like, yeah, I don't, that's kind of as good as a one night stand is going to get, and it doesn't feel worth it. But that is, leads me to this question, which is, is it about the connection? Is it about the… certainly it is about the communication between the two people and exactly what you're saying, like people do not all like the same thing.
[20:08]
And so, you know, unless you find somebody whose preferences or kinks and fetishes align with yours, or that you're willing to, you know, it's a good fit, it's a good match in the, in that way, it's not going to be like the highest level of pleasure and, you know, experience that you can have. And, and communication is like fundamental in trying to figure out what you like, what your partner likes, you know, and then having the motivation of wanting to please your partner, and the confidence of putting your own needs and interests out there is pretty important. But then my other question is, how much of it is about aligned interest and being GGG, and how much of it is about some kind of psycho-spiritual connection between two people?
Like, so to be more concrete, and this came up in the Star Trek stuff, right? Like, about Worf and Dax is just like, I'm thinking about, but partners with whom you've had really good sex, do you assume that they have really good sex with other people? Or is it about something that is particular to the two of you?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, I mean, sex is a different thing to different people, right? And, I mean, like I was saying, I, I, I think that the connection, the spiritual or emotional connection piece of it, that may or may not be important to any particular person. For some people it's going to be very important, and for some people it's not important at all. And I, I don't think that that's a function of gender or sexual orientation. I just think that different people want different things out of a sexual encounter.
I think that, you know, for me, having some kind of emotional connection with the person, I don't know if it's necessary because I've never had sex with someone where there was absolutely no emotional connection. I have had sex in situations where the relationship was, you know, fairly new, and so it wasn't necessarily like I was already in love with that person, but just that there was a something there, you know, it felt like there was a potential for it to go somewhere emotionally. I think that for the people for whom that is important, I mean, it's a necessary component, you know -
RACHEL ZUCKER: Is that called pansexual when you - No, no.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Demi-sexual.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Demi-sexual is when you have to have some kind of emotional connection to a person in order to really fully have a, a satisfied, like a, a fully satisfying sexual experience.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well I think there’s, there's like a spectrum of demisexuality. And for some people, it's going to be like that. For other people, it will be more like, I'm not going to be sexually attracted to you at all, unless I have an emotional connection first.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I think I might just be fighting against my nature every step of the way, like fighting against my heterosexuality, fighting against my demisexuality. Like it's when you just gave the definition, I was like, yeah, right, duh, of course. Because for me, I don't have the experience that I've heard some men describe, and some women, there are men who I see and I'm just like, wow, he's super attractive to me. And I certainly have like a type more and more that I like physically, but I don't want to actually have sex with anyone if I don't know them and if I don't have some kind of emotional connection with them. Like it's gross in my mind. I'm not, I'm not saying it's gross for other people. I'm just saying for me.
And I think that I don't want that to be true. So I keep that's what I mean by like, I'm fighting against it. Like -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah, I mean, I think I might be a demisexual to some degree as well. Like, what you're describing is very similar for me, where, I mean, you know, I, I, more when I'm single than when I'm not single, but even when I'm in a relationship, you know, I notice attractive women and there's sort of a, I think like there's like a clinical differentiation between arousal and attraction, or it's arousal, there's another word, like arousal is one thing and then there's another word for something else, where like, if I see someone who I, who I think is physically attractive, physically sexy, I will become aroused by that. And I don't mean like in a prurient way, I just mean, you know, like in my mind, right? Even to the point where -
RACHEL ZUCKER: It's okay to have an erection, too.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah, I know, but I just feel weird about talking about that kind of stuff on the mic. I don't know.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay. All right. I'm just, alright -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: There’s just like a whole thing about dudes talking about their boners. It's like, I -
[25:00]
RACHEL ZUCKER: I mean, but you're, I mean…
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Anyway.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay…We're going back to the gay porn thing again, but okay, keep going.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: That was before we started recording. My goodness, Rachel [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay, fine. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Okay, go ahead.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I, fuck me, what was I even talking about? I, if I see an attractive woman -
RACHEL ZUCKER: [Laughing] Your non prurient arousal in your mind only [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay. Yes. Not, not always just only in my mind. Okay? What I'm saying is like, I might want to continue looking at her, for example, like the, the, the sensation of looking at an attractive woman is pleasurable in and of itself. I usually don't continue looking at her because I have that part of my brain that's like, don't be creepy, you know, but I don't actually ever feel like I want to have sex with that woman, you know, like that's just like if, and if the, if the opportunity arose, like if I were out somewhere, I don't know, I'm never at a bar, but let's say I were like, and I, you know, saw an attractive woman and without having any other interaction with her, she was like, let's get down right now, I don't think that I would, you know, like I don't, that, that would just feel off putting to me.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Agreed.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I like the idea of role playing that situation with someone that you already have a relationship with. I've never done that. But like, in theory, I like the idea of like, protect like the, the at the bar hookup, you know, with a stranger, but the actual like, stranger sex, not, I don't, it seems scary to me.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah. Yeah.
RACHEL ZUCKER: And gross. Like sex is weird.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah. The fear part isn't, isn't as much a thing for me, obviously, because I'm a man. But, you know, another thing I'm always thinking about in my brain, in any kind of interaction that I have with women, not just sexual ones, it's like, I'm thinking the entire time about like, how can I like behave in this situation, how can I present myself in this situation so that this woman will feel safe and will understand that I am a safe person to be around and I'm not going to do anything?
RACHEL ZUCKER: But not too safe…
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Like, I'm not gonna, like, I really don't, I want to be completely safe. Like, I, I actually have trouble when it comes to dating and stuff like that because of the fact that like, no, I do want to be, like, I would want to be like a Mr. Rogers kind of character to most people, you know? I don't think I, like, I work really hard to, to sort of almost make myself seem like sexuality is, it's not a part of who I am when I'm out in the world most of the time.
RACHEL ZUCKER: All I'm thinking about is, Would I fuck Mr. Rogers?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, he has children. So somebody else -
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes [laughs]. But he would have to initiate and not with hand puppets.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Oh my god [laughs]. There's a, there was a, I remember this this Sheila Heti did this, Oh God, this was probably like 15 years ago where it was about having her sexual awakening be Raffi and then like talking to him about that and, and being like, have you ever talked to any, you know, people grown who grew up with you and like they wanted to be with you and he was just wouldn't go there. And I remember, I didn't know who Sheila had, he was at that point. And I just felt like, I don't know what's happening in this essay. It's compelling, but I feel real uncomfortable with this [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: All right, let's go back to intergalactic sex [laughs]. Because then I, while you were saying that, I was like, okay, yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: All right. Let's start with Commander Riker.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Oh, I was just thinking about Commander Riker.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Go ahead.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Beard or no beard.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, I -
RACHEL ZUCKER: Those are two different Rikers.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay. The reasons that I feel Commander Riker would be good in bed are not related to the beard. I personally find Riker, young Riker with no beard to be much more attractive than Beard Riker [Rachel gasps], and I'm the only person I know who feels this way, male or female or whatever or otherwise, like, I, I don't know, like, anytime I say this, people make the same face that you just made [laughs].
But, like, I was actually, like, a couple years ago, I was, I was rewatching Next Generation from the beginning, and I was like, holy shit, like, I did not know he was that handsome in the first season, like.
RACHEL ZUCKER: He definitely has a twinkle in his eye, and like a real kind of like, friendly lech quality.
[30:00]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yes. I think Commander Riker would be good in bed. Do you?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes. What I think is, I need to have visible evidence of some kind that the man is interested, and that the man likes sex. So I, I prefer men who are interested in sex with lots of women because I am included in lots of women [laughs], than men who are perhaps very subtle in their attraction and arousal. So I think that, like, the fact that Riker is very overt in his interest in women and in sex, even one time in a non binary person, makes me suspect that he is good in bed. That little assumption might be really wrong.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, one of the things that you said earlier, is a really, like I hadn't quite considered it before. But I think that Riker really does like and love women.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Mm hmm.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Like when I think about the friendships, the platonic relationships that he has with women on, on The Enterprise, like, he's a pretty good friend to his women friends and he does seem to genuinely care about people. Another thing that has come up several times on this utterly ridiculous Star Trek podcast that I listen to is that Riker cares about consent.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You know, he, he, he wants the other person, like he is not interested if the other person is not into it. Like he just, he just won't go there. And, you know, I think he's obviously very experienced. He seems like the kind of person who cares about, you know, other people's experiences. I don't know if he would be a great husband [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: I think he does care about other people's experiences for sure. But I think part of why he cares about their experiences is because it is important to him to succeed and to be a good lover and to be, you know, to get a notch in his belt, you know, like, but not in a bad, not in a, not in a conquest, non consensual way, but he wants to be good at his job, whether it's number one, or whether it's Deanna Troi's husband or boyfriend or someone else's boyfriend, like, he doesn't just want, I think he would like for women to talk about him behind his back and say he was good. And I don't think that's a problem. Like, I think because it there, it's also based in consent, like, but part of it is like very, narcissistic in a way, but I'm okay with that.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, I kind of think on some level, like, like doing good for other people in, in any sense on purpose could be seen as narcissistic because like, at the end of the day, we are kind of always doing it in order to feel good about ourselves, you know -
RACHEL ZUCKER: Sort of…
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Or at least to like, avoid feeling bad about ourselves.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I'm not sure. I mean, there's a lot of men who, not a lot, thank God, but more than enough men who like, do horrible things, like have sex with unconscious women. So like -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I'm not saying that people don't do bad things. I'm saying that when people do good things, it's ultimately selfish.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes. But I think that there's two different kinds. Like there are some men who it's like, they want to have an incredibly pleasurable experience, and they know that part of themselves having an incredibly pleasurable experience is that their partner is willing, is GGG, and that they're and they're GGG and they're going to get to like, you know, get to this kind of interesting new place, you know, but it's primarily about like them getting the, the, the act, the experience itself is pleasurable.
And the other, the other piece of it, which I think for Riker, like, I think Picard, you, you said you did not think Picard is a very, is very good in bed. And I agree with you 100%. And I think part of that is because he's all up in his head and he's all like, he wants to be a good person and he doesn't want to do anything wrong, but actually he's not such a great person. And I think he's got all kinds of weird, fucked up, uptight qualities that don't allow him to just like be in his body. You know, like I imagine, I don't know if this is exactly the right term for, for Riker, but like gentleman Dom or something. He's definitely a Dom, but like a soft Dom, because I think that in my fantasy, what he, the reason that he's a good, he's good in bed is that he knows how… what's the expression for women, like boss in the streets? Sub in the sheets? I'm like mixing up all the things that I've ever read. But like, I think Riker likes strong women.
[35:00]
And I think he knows that there are strong women who like to be dominated sexually. And I think that he gets off on doing a good job at that, which in some ways is, you know, it's, it's not so much about conquest, but it is about his reputation in a way, as like a, successful lover, and he's comfortable enough with himself to be able to figure out what a woman wants, what she likes, and like to go there.
And I think that he would, he, he, he's probably a switch, you know, like, he's probably like, like, let's try whatever you like, you know, whereas I feel like Picard is like, this is not the right way to have sex. We should have sex like this, or we should have sex like this [laughs]. Or, you know, are you, are you interested in, would you, would you like to go to the holodeck, and join me for a cup of Earl Grey tea and some restraints?
It's like, that's not sexy. Ew, gross. Like he's not, he's not, he's not comfortable enough with his own self to be bad, you know, he's not, he doesn't know that he's good, so he can't be bad. Does that make sense? [Laughs]. See, Worf is very uptight in a lot of ways and very confused and very concerned about all the things that Picard is concerned about. But Worf would be a very sexy challenge.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Laughs] My supposition is that Worf is a sub behind closed doors.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Disappointing.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: And being, being with Dax is definitely evidence in that direction for me, because Dax is not, like, Dax is a top. Yeah. So [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. I think I'd rather just sleep with Dax.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, who wouldn't? [Laughs]
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Yeah. I think Worf is probably really good in bed, but not a good match for me. Not a good fit. Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Rounding out the Next Generation, my supposition is that Geordi is bad in bed.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Terrible.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Because he's, I mean, the, the least charitable way to talk about Geordi is that he gives off incel vibes.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Ugh.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't know, I don't, I mean, I think Geordi, I don't think he's a terrible person, but like, yeah, no, I, I don't think that he…
RACHEL ZUCKER: I think the word I would use is whiny. He's so fucking whiny. No one wants to have sex with a whiner. Well, I guess that's not true. A lot of people do. The whole brat thing, the brat taming thing? Maybe he's, I don't know, but he, I was about to say in real life [laughs]. Yeah, I mean, on Star Trek, he's very whiny, in my opinion, and I find that to be…
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: . I definitely, I mean, it's weird because I don't get that vibe from him when he's just like among friends or doing his job, but like with women, yes, I think I can see that.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Like I could, I could imagine if I were going to have sex with Geordi, it would have to be like this: keep the visor on first of all, not into the visor has to stay on. The clothes can come off, the visor stays on and he just has to talk about engineering and like, his greatest field of competency, even if I don't understand it, he has to just add big numbers. We could have sex if he just added big numbers out loud the whole time, I could, I could get into it [laughs]. Visor stays on and he talks technical stuff the whole time, but no fucking whining.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Laughs]. Okay. And then Data.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: We have reason to believe that Data is technically skilled because of the whole Tasha Yar thing. And we know canonically that he's programmed with multiple techniques. You know, but I, I kind of feel like he would just be, like, there's no, there's just no, there's no there, there, you know, and that he would be really bad at the aftercare, you know.
RACHEL ZUCKER: See, you, I remember, you said that. I don't think, I think he could be great at the aftercare, like, like really, cause he, you know, he would do research, like what do people, you know, what do women like on aftercare?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: But the actual interactions you see that when he's like trying to comfort someone or anything like that, it's like the stiffest, most awkward thing that it's like, I read in a book that you should like pat somebody on the shoulder. So he's like, you know, like -
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, here's the thing that wouldn't work for me about Data. And by the way, I have to interrupt this in one second to tell you something very funny. But the thing that wouldn't work for me about Data is that I think that I need to feel like the other person is very attracted or aroused or into it, or, you know, like, again, like there's, there's some kind of, as they say, in the college application world, demonstration of interest, and the cognitive intellectual alone, I find a little bit lacking.
[40:17]
And this, and this in a way is what, what I, what I'm feeling guilty about myself right now in my dating life, because I'm sort of objectifying the men. And there's like a way in which Data, it would be like, well, this is an interesting experiment. Let's see if this works. Let's see if this works. And I think that ultimately that's, that's not sexy for me, but I have to tell you something. I have to really have to tell you something.
As we're talking my watch is giving me these notifications - I turned off my phone. I turned off my computer to do not disturb, but I don't know how to fix my watch - is sending me notifications from Telegram, which is not an app I use except when the men on the dating apps are like, well, I only like to communicate with Telegram, which, why? They're either married and they're lying or like, the whole the whole thing of Telegram and the dating apps. But in any case I'm getting text notification that hot Jesse the musician, I did tell you about hot Jesse? Anyway, he, as we're talking he has texted me. I had a brief video chat with him two days ago and he texted me: I thought you were cute I like u teeth and then a smiley face with hearts coming out of an emoji.
And I just, I've really trying to figure out whether Jesse, hot Jesse is hot by his own description [laughs]. He, cause he, he texted me and was like, remember me? And I was like, I really don't remember you at all. And he was like, I'm the hot musician that you, you know, met on this dating app. But so, it's very funny to me that I'm getting the, like, that's, that's his -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't think I would personally trust any man who described himself as hot. You know…
RACHEL ZUCKER: He’s not classically handsome.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I was going to say, like, I thought you were done with with handsome men. But if it's only him that's describing himself that way [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: It's very confusing because the 69 year old texted me the day after we met, or no, that afternoon, like a good first date after the good first date, it's nice to text. And he said, I told him that I almost became a therapist and then I didn't. And he said, you would have made a very good therapist. You're a really good listener and ask really thoughtful questions. And I was like, fuck you. I do not want the one more man tells me that I'm a good listener. I'm going to fucking just punch him in the face. Don't tell me I'm a good listener.
And I was very proud of myself because I mean, of course I'm a good listener! And also, of course, I ask good questions. I’m a podcast host. Stupid. Anyway.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: See, for me, that would be a giant turn on if a woman said that to me.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I wrote back to him. I was proud of myself. And I said, thank you for the compliments. I enjoyed meeting you. I think I would have preferred for you to write that you thought I was fabulously beautiful, which I totally am not. I don't think of myself as that way. But like, I don't know. There's something like, ew. So, I don't know. I'm trying to figure out if I like that Jesse, hot Jesse, wrote, I thought, first of all, also the past tense, I thought you were cute? Does he not think I'm cute anymore? Cute is an interesting word. And then I like u teeth. I try not to grammar shame. But I don't know how it's going with hot Jesse on Telegram [laughs].
But there I go again, objectifying the men.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: It's fine for you to objectify the men.
RACHEL ZUCKER: All right, back to who are we talking about? Data? Yeah, I don't think I can… I don't think…
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: For a person who is probably a demisexual, at least to some degree, like the fact that data has no emotions, or at least Data show Data has no emotions and can't have emotions, like, yeah, that's just never going to be a good experience.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes. Correct. Okay. But can't we talk about the women? Or we can't talk about the women?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: We can talk about whatever you want to talk about. And I will just deal with the fact that I'm going to be uncomfortable and probably, and I'm going to be worried about whether or not our four listeners think I'm being a creep.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I love that we got one new listener since like, 15 minutes ago [laughs].
[45:00]
Hey guys.
Okay. So do you think Beverly Crusher or Deanna Troi are better lovers?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I think probably Troi is, is a better lover than Deanna. than Beverly is.
RACHEL ZUCKER: [Sighs]. I mean, that's the obvious answer because she's an empath and she's, she's, she's sensual and she's, you know, she's a Betazoid and she's like, she's a counselor, but I feel like Beverly, I bet she, I bet she gives a really, really good blow job.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I think that part of this is going to come down to culture because canonically, Betazoid culture is a very sexual culture. It's a very sex positive culture, and I think you were asking, what makes a woman good in bed. Again, again, I don't think there's such a thing as good in bed, but I do think that being uncomfortable in the situation for either partner, you know, like regardless of gender, that being uncomfortable in the situation for whatever reason is going to make it much more likely that it's going to be awkward or just bad in some way, and being fully comfortable with yourself and being fully comfortable with the, like the fact that sex is happening, I think that that is going to go a long way towards making it a really good experience.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Again I feel like that's relatively new. I feel like you're, you're very progressive, Mike, very progressive right now. I mean, in general you’re very progressive.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don’t think that it's just me in this case.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Some men like a woman who's utterly uncomfortable in every way. Like that's the turn on for them.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I agree that that is the case.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Making women do things they don't want to do.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yes. Yes. I do think that that is, you know, obviously there are many men for whom feeling powerful is, you know, at any cost, is part of the experience for them. But it's also like, it's not a new thing, you know, if you want to talk about like locker room style talk, like, which I haven't actually done a ton of in my life, but you know, even just stuff like, you know, stuff that filters in through pop culture, you know, a woman who is, like who just is lying there like a fish, like that is like a very classic example of something that men would complain about to their men friends, you know.
Now, there's a whole double standard here about like, you know, a lady in the streets, but a freak in the sheets kind of thing. Like that, like if a woman is like really, like obviously experienced and enthusiastic in bed, then when you're in bed with her, that's great. But then the, you know, if you're a man, you, you very well likely will not respect her in any other situation. You know, the whole Madonna whore thing, like, and I get that right. Like men who are able to both enjoy a woman's sexual enthusiasm and prowess in the sexual situation, and still respect her outside of that situation, that probably is a more new and progressive thing, you know? But I don't think that men enjoying women who enjoy sex is not, I don't think that's necessarily a new or progressive thing.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay, let me ask you this in a slightly different way. In all of the Star Trek shows that you've seen, with adults, because I'm with you on that, which female presenting character are you most attracted to, or would you most want to sleep with?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Fuck me. God, could you have asked me a question that I want to answer less than this?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Really?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Probably. Probably. Probably.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Oh my God. Don't answer it then. Don't answer it. Because I wasn't, I thought it, I thought it was a fun question. I was so excited to hear you say, if, like, I, like, what if you said Seven of Nine, which I don't think you're going to say, but she's fucking hot and so interesting. And like, in terms of the stuff that we're talking about, because she's in her sexual individual development, she's young. She's inexperienced, but she has all these, she has so much power and so much strength in other ways that it could be like a really, I don't know. But anyway, so don't answer the question.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I said, I would just deal with me being uncomfortable. All right? It's like, I just, I just have such a, you know that I'm uncomfortable with any situation where I might seem like that guy, you know, I just. So I'm, I'm, okay, the person, like, just physically, who I think I had the biggest crush on ever in any of the Star Trek iterations was probably Dax.
[50:10]
RACHEL ZUCKER: Oh. Yes.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Now, part of that is just because, like, I think that Terry Farrell, you know, the actress who plays Dax, is just beautiful, but not just beautiful, but beautiful and sexy.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, the spots.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: With or without, like, even when I've seen her in other things, I just think that she's hot. There's also, I, I personally make a distinction between someone who is beautiful and someone who is sexy. You can be both or you can be either without being the other.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I would love to have sex with a symbiont. Then you get to have sex with men and women and other aliens and non binary and all the experiences. That would be amazing. That's what I, I just realized that's what I should put on my dating profile, looking for a symbiont.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yes. I think that like, realistically, right, if I were actually going to be in a situation where I could be having sex with Jadzia Dax. Also, like, Jadzia Dax, not just physically, but like, personality wise, much more attractive to me than Ezri Dax.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Mmm.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: But, I think that I would find that personally kind of intimidating. You know? Like, knowing this is a person who's been with so many other people that like, she really knows what she's doing, she's had all the experiences, like, I would be worried like, can I… like, what do I have to offer this person?
RACHEL ZUCKER: You'd have like a little performance anxiety.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah. I mean, not even performance. I mean, performance would be part of it. It's more just like, I don't know, like, I just feel like I want to make sure that my partner is having a good time. I'm not when, yeah, that's performance anxiety, I guess. And the other thing too, is that like, I think I might be worried like, is, is she going to ask me to do something that I'm not super comfortable with? [Laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Uh huh.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Like, in terms of who I think I would probably have the most satisfying sexual experience with, I mean, it's a very vanilla answer. It's probably Counselor Troi.
RACHEL ZUCKER: But she's going to boss you around so much, Mike.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You think?
RACHEL ZUCKER: I do. And then she's going to be like, I mean, it's so weird for me to be trash talking her because like, she was the one I most identified with, you know, so I'm probably just hating on myself, but you know, she also, I feel like she, she's a little whiny too. She gets, she, she's very sensitive, you know, the, all the whole empath thing. I don't know. It's, it's a lot. I feel like there's going to be a lot of feelings for you to deal with all the time, a lot of processing, and she's going to, I don't know.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't actually really have a problem with women who are quote unquote bossy in bed. Like if a woman has enough, like confidence and self awareness to know what she wants and tell me that that's what she wants in the moment, I'm good with that. You know, that's, I'm happy to, like, I'm happy to be of service.
Realistically, I, I don't think that any of the Star Trek women are people that I would actually be a good fit with in bed. Again, it's just like, it's not really about whether I find them attractive. It's more like, in that situation, am I, am I feeling like it's a good connection? And I, I just -
RACHEL ZUCKER: What about Tasha Yar?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, so first of all, I have a lot of trust issues when it comes to blonde White women. And which is, you know, not totally fair. There are, you know, blonde White women, like actually one of my really good friends locally is a blonde White woman. She's also like one of the most dedicated, and engaged, political activists that I've ever met. But there's just something about, like, when I was on dating apps, like, almost all of the blonde White women were, like, really obviously conservative.
There's something about, I don't know, there's like, I think, like, there's like, Tressie McMillan Cottom has written about, you know, the, the political, ramifications and status associated with blondness that, like, especially with that, like, platinum blonde kind of look that it really, there's something about it.
RACHEL ZUCKER: She's kind of butch, though.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yes. So, like, personality wise, I don't think that Tasha Yar would necessarily be a thing. When I was a kid, I didn't find her attractive, probably because she had short hair, which is not something that would bother me now. But also just because, like, you know, that second episode notwithstanding, I just didn't really see her as a very sexual person. Also, like, you know, she's got a lot of sexual trauma in her past.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So that would be a lot to navigate, you know, I'm not saying I wouldn't -
RACHEL ZUCKER: Oh, oh, oh, I, I have a good one to set you up with.
[55:00]
I mean, there's a lot of trauma. There's a lot of trauma. Sorry. I think Ensign Ro.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Laughs] Ensign Ro is mean.
RACHEL ZUCKER: But hot.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: She's hot. Sure. And like, I, you know, I think Ensign Rowe probably, probably knows what she wants. And, you know, all of that stuff, there is, and there is like, I'm not going to say I wouldn't be attracted to her. What I'm saying is that, like, I don't think Ensign Ro would be attracted to me.
RACHEL ZUCKER: No, I think you guys could have some good sex, the two of you.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I think that Ensign Roe would, like, I just think that she would find me really, I don't think I'm what she's looking for in a man, and I think therefore that she would just be really mean to me [laughs]. I'm not into that. Some people are into that. I'm not into that.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hmm. Okay. Alright.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: The thing that you said about needing your partner to be very obviously into you? Like probably the biggest turn on for me is when a woman is very like obviously attracted to me, you know, like, I think that is actually enough sometimes for me to fall in love with someone like against my better judgment. You know, I'm not even just speaking necessarily of women that I have been in relationships with or slept with. I mean, just.
I, I mean, this is something that's just really obvious to anybody who knows me well, just that like, I hate myself so much that it is just like, so surprising to me when someone is attracted to me. Also just like, you know, when I was growing up, all the other kids who were my age just like went out of their way to tell me how unattractive I was. And so the idea that anyone could find me attractive is so weird to me that I always find it really surprising and really just like, oh, really? Tell me more [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay. Okay. So, unfortunately, I identify with this very deeply [laughs], but my question is, I, yes, somebody who is interested in me, it's, it's the biggest turn on of all time, but I also highly distrust it. And so then I do a whole fucked up thing, and that, and that's, it's really bad. Do you do that too? You like, you're like, what's wrong with this person? They, they like me.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't think that I do that. I do, but I, I will, I, I will say I don't, I don't trust it. I don't go to the point of like testing the person to try and make them prove it. It's more just like, you know, if someone says I'm attractive, I just don't believe them, you know? And I mean, I don't know, this might be kind of like a, an egotistical or arrogant kind of thing to say, at this point in my life, I've actually had kind of a lot of people tell me that I'm good looking and -
RACHEL ZUCKER: You are good looking, Mike.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, thank you. I don't believe you [laughs]. And it's, it's very nice, but I'm just, I'm like, you know, I just don't really believe it, you know.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hmm. You’re not like so good looking that I think you would be terrible in bed.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, I mean, as far as I -
RACHEL ZUCKER: I’m just being clear.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay, as far as I know, I, I'm not terrible in bed. The, you know, partners that I've had have, have all seemed pretty satisfied.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Look at you with your locker room talk.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, you know, it's quite possible that -
RACHEL ZUCKER: [Laughs] I’m so teasing you.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: It's quite possible that I was just, you know, that I'm wrong about that.
RACHEL ZUCKER: You're not [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: But I mean, I mean, this is the thing too, is like, you know, men are so dangerous, both physically and emotionally that, you know, women have a lot of incentive to say that a man is, good in bed when he's not, or even to act like a man is good in bed when he's not, just so that like his ego won't be damaged and then he might take it out on her. So like, I actually cannot know whether or not any of my partners were ever sexually satisfied. You know, even, you know, even my ex-wife, who we were together for 25 years, I really have no idea. It's very possible she wasn't. You know?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. It's very interesting. Yeah. And there's a lot of insecurity that comes with not being able to know, you know, and, and, and understanding why a woman would lie or, you know, just reassure a man.
[59:43]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Honestly like I, I, I just have trouble believing kind of like what we were talking about before, that any woman actually wants to have sex with a man, you know, like even when they're actively in the process of having sex with that man, you know, like men in general or a specific man. Like I just, and since I am a man, like I, I have, there's, there's always going to be a part of me that's like, you don't really want to be here. Like, we don't have to do this, you know, like I, it's okay. Like. It's fine. We don't have -
RACHEL ZUCKER: But that’s what men are for. Sex. That's what men are for. I mean, I'm joking and I'm not joking. I mean, it's a terrible thing to say.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: That and like killing spiders.
RACHEL ZUCKER: [Laughs]. I kill the spiders myself. I don't need help with that. My ex husband is terrified of spiders. Like so fucking terrified.
Yeah. No. I mean, this is why my greatest fantasy is to be a gay man. Because then you get to have sex with men and you get to be a man and you can just like enjoy women.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah. I, I think that, you know, the idea of, when I think about like the attraction of being a gay man, it's mostly that like, then I could, you know, be in a romantic and sexual relationship and not like, like, then I just wouldn't be bothering any women at all [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And I could be, if I were a gay man, I could have all the sex I want with men without being scared.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Mm hmm. I'm told that, you know, intimate partner violence is still a thing on gay men.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I know. And gay women too. I mean, yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Oh, now you got sad again. You got me sad again.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I’m just a sad. I'm a sad -
RACHEL ZUCKER: We were supposed to, I should have gotten high [laughs]. How is this going to help me? I've watched so much Star Trek. I’ve thought so much about having sex with all the people.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Some of them I cannot imagine you've imagined very many times, like I like you get to liking women? Chief O'Brien does not like women.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. No. But I, I, I mean, I have never slept with a woman. I've never, I've never even kissed a woman, but I, I, I certainly have a lot of feelings about the women, sexual feelings about the women.
Interest, interest. I mean, they're, I mean, first of all, Tig Notaro, awesome. Oh my God. But yeah, so many of the women are very appealing to me. I mean, I wouldn't want to have sex with Captain Janeway, but I would like to watch her have sex. I would like to know what her sex life is like.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I, I don't know why, like, I'm sure this is just a deficiency on my part, but like, I cannot imagine Captain Janeway having sex. Like of all of the like women on Star Trek, like some of the women on Star Trek, I just, I don't know, they just, they just don't seem sexual to me at all. Like, actually, Dr. Crusher is another person who I just like cannot really imagine in a sexual situation, you know, I don't know why.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I have no problem. Like, I have a very, there, so there's a porn couple. They're married and they have all sorts of nice sex with each other. I watch them sometimes. What's their names? I can't remember. Bonnie. The show is really turning into something else [laughs]. I forget.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: We can cut this part out if you want [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Bonnie and… I can't remember her husband's name, but they're, they're just, they're lovely. They have such lovely sex with each other. Sometimes it's, you know, sometimes they, get a little rough, but they just, they really, really seem to like each other. We should probably put the link in the show notes.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't, I don't want to admit this, but I know who you're talking about.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Oh, yay. I think they're great. I, my life, well, I'll just for our four listeners out there, my life got better once I started Googling gentle, loving porn. The porn bite that's made by women doesn't do it for me. Honestly. Bonnie and Alex. His name is Alex.
Anyway, I imagine Captain Janeway to be Bonnie. I feel like she's just like that.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay.
RACHEL ZUCKER: All right. I don't know what
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Laughs]. I don’t know what to say about that.
RACHEL ZUCKER: how, how great that you knew who I was talking about. That's so nice.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I'm really embarrassed right now.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Why?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't know.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Like, it's so interesting. Like, why? Like, I mean, I know the answer to this, but why is it more embarrassing that we both have at some, at some point, at least know, if not clearly watched, the same porn people, than that we've watched. I don't know how many hundreds of hours of Star Trek, and that we both like act like we know who these characters are intimately and that these are -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I am very comfortable with myself as a nerd. You know, like I, a hundred percent, this is like part of my identity is, this who I am. I'm very nerd forward. You know. I long ago lost whatever shame I had about my nerdness. Star Trek is very vanilla as nerd stuff goes, you know, like I watch, I watch anime and sometimes I watch weird, obscure anime. Like I play Dungeons and Dragons. I like used to play Warhammer 40k. Like I, I, I'm deep in the nerd shit, you know? Like, Star Trek is nothing.
RACHEL ZUCKER: But you also have sex.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah.
RACHEL ZUCKER: And, and I know this about you.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yes. There's something about admitting to watching porn is just, even though it's like, basically all men do. I think part of it has to do with growing up in the nineties, you know, around second wave feminism being like a really big part of my household and my mom just being so, like, the idea of pornography being presented just purely as an evil thing, you know, as like, an evil thing that is terrible for women and it should be abolished kind of thing. Like, yes, like maybe make some kind of nod towards freedom of expression or whatever. But like, I think I just have too much, too much of my young, my formative ideas about sex being influenced by that, you know?
RACHEL ZUCKER: I hear you. And I, I do, I think, I think porn is complicated. I actually know a lot of men now in their forties and fifties who have stopped watching porn because it really has very negatively affected their sex life, you know, with, with other people. And it's complicated, and, you know, there was this very attractive butch woman who I saw when I was growing up, you know, over and over and over again in New York City, who was, you know, railing against pornography and she had all these, you know, placards and things and like, yeah, and I, I, I'm very, you know, I'm pretty vanilla in general, but like in my porn, I just acknowledge that I Google “loving gentle porn,” you know, so I'm very, I'm particularly vanilla in, in, in my porn. But, and I get it, like, you know, I was sort of late to porn and I've gone through periods of time where I just really don't, you know, it's not a good part of my life and, and I, or I'm just like totally not interested, but I don't know. I mean, I guess I feel like, how can it not be better to watch porn than to have actual sexual relationship with a living breathing human being who you're basically treating like porn? You know what I mean?
Like, like, after my successful one night stand, I thought to myself, well, that was actually nice. But also, isn't that just what porn is for? Do you know what I mean? Like, I, I wasn't going to have a relationship with him. I wasn't going to, you know, see him again. I was like, okay, great. I did that. Fine.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I'm not sure that I've ever heard any generation of feminist argument that using women as sexual objects is in any way, better or preferable to using pornography.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I was saying women using - I know what you
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I know what you were, I know what you were talking about.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay. Sorry.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I was talking about myself.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Because I'm not a woman.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I have, I have heard some feminist arguments, you know in the vein of that objectifying men or using men is actually a good thing to do, and in order to make things more even. And I've also heard other people, you know, I've heard this conversation among women as one where there are arguments and counter arguments being presented. I have never heard it in any form from anyone saying that it's okay for men to do to women.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right, right. Which I think is why porn is a lot easier for a lot of men, because you're not at risk of doing that to a real living woman.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, I guess I will say the one context where I have heard like a feminist argument for that kind of objectification, I guess you could say, or, of women by men would be in the context of sex work. That, you know, more contemporary feminist thought often is very sex worker positive. And so, you know, in that case, literally, you would be using someone for their services in that, in that way, I guess, I guess that's something, but like in the context of, you know, outside of sex work, I don't think that's something I've, I've heard of.
[1:10:10]
RACHEL ZUCKER: I'm very interested in exploring a sex worker, but I haven't been, I've Googled it recently, because I've been thinking like, why not? If, if I'm at a point in my life where I don't think I have a lot to offer in terms of a relationship right now, and men, in my experience, resist my new attempts to objectify them, they seem to have so many feelings that they need to tell me about, and then I end up being a good listener, which is really not what I want out of a man, and it's just it's a lot of time and energy and the dating apps and all the stuff and I was just thinking like, I don't know, maybe that's this is the perfect example of a time where the most ethical choice for somebody like me would be to find a sex worker, but you can't, it's very, I haven't been able, maybe all of our listeners could help me find a sex worker [laughs]. I, I don't know. I'm very, I'm very interested in this. Now I've taken us in another direction.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: It's, it is…
RACHEL ZUCKER: I don't know. I don't know if I'd have the, if I'd have the nerve, you know, but in theory, and I, I think in part, I am interested in exploring these questions that we started with about, is it possible to be good in bed? Is this like a skills thing? Or is it an attitude thing? Or does it have everything to do with the dynamic between two or more people?
And I think that in my fantasy of it, you can really only, or you can get a different piece of information with a sex worker, a male sex worker. I think it's, it's very complicated to go in the other direction. You know, it, it, it, they're both are complicated, but like in theory, one way to test that these hypotheses of, you know, what makes sex pleasurable, what makes sex good, what, you know, is it, is it the GGG of your partner? Is it, you know, the match of kink and fetish or preferences? A good male sex worker is going to help you get some information about the answers to those questions. I don't know.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Maybe. I remember there was a, here's an interesting thing. I think I might've even told you this before. I, I remember a while back, maybe a year or so ago, which means it could have been any time between last week and three years ago. I saw, I think a TikTok about this woman, I think she was actually talking about a friend of hers who was like, you know, she wants to have sexual gratification and really just does not want to deal with men and was saying that what she wants is just for somebody to, for a man to just come over to her house, go down on her until she is completely limp, and then leave.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Ooh! I didn't see that coming. Sorry, go ahead.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Laughs]. And then leave. And then, no talking. And then apparently, she had a male friend who was like, I can do that for you.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Wow!
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So they did that. And it seemed like it was working out great. Now, I have no idea whether or not this affected their friendship. I don't know if it was, like, how long this went on for. I don't know how often she used his services. I don't know how close their friendship was to start with. But that was just apparently a thing. She was like, this is what I want. I want this to happen. I want there to be no talking. I want you to come in, service me, and then leave.
RACHEL ZUCKER: That is the most awful thing I can imagine. Well, that's not true, but that is one of the most awful things I can imagine. That's awful [laughs]. And I would not like that at all. The leaving part? No. The going down part? No [laughs]. No, none of these things are, are, that's not what I pick off the menu.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I'm just, I guess what I'm saying is, so like, here is this woman who is like, what I want is for a man to come in and do these sexual things for me and not have to consider him or his pleasure or his feelings at all.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah, that I get. And the no talking? Thumbs up on the no talking in the fantasy, like, you know, not in the other kinds of, you know, relationship-y type things, but the no talking, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I heard recently that somebody knows a young woman who is a professional snuggler. There's no sex, but she comes over.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah. Yeah. I've heard of this. I see one of my really good friends. His, his most recent girlfriend that was one of her side jobs.
[1:15:01]
RACHEL ZUCKER: I would very much like, well, one particular man, but a handsome in a certain way, man, to come over and just put me to bed. Just like, help me get ready for bed and get in bed and, you know, rub my back, and then not fall asleep and snore [laughs] and not talk to me, unless it was exactly the right thing. I don't know. I, I think, I think I have no idea what I want.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I think most of us don't.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Should I respond to hot Jesse or not? And should I -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Why do you think I'm going to give you any kind of an answer to this question?
RACHEL ZUCKER: I don't know. Should I have another date with a 69 year old?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: What about our friendship makes… I think that you should do that if you want and not if you don't.
RACHEL ZUCKER: But I just told you I don't know what I want.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't know what you want either.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I know. I'd like to be stuck on a starship in another galaxy with a crew full of interesting, nerdy, smart, well trained men who are at least in as good enough shape to stay in Starfleet, but who have like ethical principles. I think this sounds great [laughs]. So I think, I think all of them are potentially good in bed. The scenario is good.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't know if all of them are potentially. I think some of them are irredeemably… irredeemably bad [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: I mean, I'm just saying, like, I'd have sex with Tom Paris one time, like, I agree with you. I feel like I had, I did have sex with Thomas Paris one time.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay. Would you have sex with Neelix?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hmmmm. Is there synthehol involved?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Laughs]. There's a whole trend, there's a whole trend on, on, on TikTok in various different iterations of like, these filters where you like tap the, the phone and it like randomly shows you a picture that's, like, it, it'll be like, might be Star Trek characters. It might be, you know, characters from a particular anime. The most recent one I've seen is from the video game Baldur's Gate 3. And the thing is you, you do this and then whoever comes up, you have to say how many drinks it would take for you to sleep with them.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Mmm.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I had one of my friends say, I need you to do this. And I was like, why? [Laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: I feel like we could have another podcast where it's just, it's called “Make Mike Uncomfortable.” And we could have different people on every, every time. And it would be like -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I thought that that was a serious undercurrent of what we were already doing.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I know, but I, I want to get more people involved. I want it to be non-monogamous [laughs].
All right. I think you should either end this or ask me a question or, you know, tell me I'm a good listener and I'll get offended and hang up.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You are a good listener, but I don't think that's what this show is about [Rachel sighs]. If anything, I think it, that this show is, is supposed to be about me being a good listener and I don't know whether I am, but -
RACHEL ZUCKER: You are, but you like being a good listener. So that's good.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah [laughs]. Yeah, like the best thing that a woman can tell me is that I'm not like other men [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: I just want to be Helen of Troy.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, you're probably not alone in that.
RACHEL ZUCKER: [Laughs]. All right. I think that's all I have in me. I think I probably said way too much. And you need like one of those -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Are you gonna, are you gonna, are you regretting this?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Am I regretting being sober for this conversation?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Are you regretting having this conversation recorded and possibly shared?
RACHEL ZUCKER: No. Oh, sorry. Are you looking for enthusiastic consent? [Laughs]. No, I, I think what I most wanted was what I most want right now from sex, which is to have someone's undivided attention, and to be distracted and engaged away from my life of unremitting obligation and responsibility and caring for others. And so this conversation did do that for me. I think probably my therapist would like to talk to me about whether I feel that I need to give too much of like, like in order to earn that attention and in order to earn the distraction, whether I feel compelled to expose myself or embarrass myself, or -
[1:20:03]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Are you feeling embarrassed?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Maybe I'm a little embarrassed at how clearly unsuccessful I am right now in dating and sex and maybe how low my standards are. And how desperate I sound.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Don't you think that women have to have low standards if they want to be with men?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah, and I guess I feel like I am embarrassed about it. But like it's also just true. So sometimes when something is true and embarrassing I feel like -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I guess what I mean is that you're certainly not alone in that.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Mm hmm.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: That's most of what I hear women talking about when they're talking about men either when it comes to sex or romantic relationships. It's just that the bar is below the floor.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Mm hmm. I feel like we're doing the aftercare part of the episode now.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: That was supposed to be part of the format, was topic and then reflect.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah, I feel a little sad right now.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: What's that about?
RACHEL ZUCKER: It might be that because the conversation is over.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Hmm.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Or it might be, I don't know. I don't know if it's like regrets about saying some of the stuff I said or sadness that now I have to go back to the rest of my life. I don't know. How do you feel?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: That's a good question. I think I feel good insofar as I feel like I probably did provide you with a period of my undivided attention and, you know, a space for you to express yourself.
And there is something, you know, I have that sort of soft narcissism of wanting people to think I'm a good person and a good man. So that's good. I am mildly concerned that some of the things that I said are things that will either make people think I'm a bad person and a bad man, either because I'm you know, admitting to, I don't know, being heterosexual or, or because I'm not properly checking my privilege or something like that, you know, that I said things that might be problematic from the perspective of, you know, me saying, I wish I could join these groups, these identities, these classes that I'm not a part of. I'm a little concerned that people will hear that and, you know, find that offensive. I'm a little concerned that, not just that people will find that offensive, but that I am, like, that me having said that is evidence that I'm, you know, a terrible person.
But, on the other hand, if somebody does actually write in and complain at me and tell me that I'm a terrible person, there is something that would be kind of cathartic about that, because when you're always secretly worried that you're a terrible person, having someone come in and tell you that you are, there is something kind of nice about that, even though it also is very painful.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, also like, which is worse: to have someone tell you that you're a terrible person, or to realize nobody's listening to us? [Laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: We've got those three or four people.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Thank God. Hey, David [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay, we should probably end it.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay, bye.
[Music]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You’ve been listening to Hey, It’s Me with Rachel Zucker and Mike Sakasegawa.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hey, It’s Me is a production of Rachel Zucker and Likewise Media.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Editing on this episode is by Mike Sakasagawa, music is by Podington Bear, and transcription help is by Leigh Sugar.
RACHEL ZUCKER: You can find more information about the show, including contact information and transcripts, at heyitsmepodcast.com.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: If you'd like to hear more from us, you can find Rachel's other show, Commonplace, at Commonplace.today
RACHEL ZUCKER: And you can find Mike's other show, Keep the Channel Open, at keepthechannelopen.com. Thanks for spending this time with us. Take care.