Transcript - Episode 14: Maybe It’s Just Enough For the Two of Us to Sit Together in the Bad Feelings
Hey, It’s Me
EPISODE # 14
Hosts: Mike Sakasegawa and Rachel Zucker
Transcript by: Leigh Sugar
Transcripts formatted after those from Disability Visibility Project
Please note: transcripts are transcribed directly from recordings of live conversations; as a result, quotes and statements may be approximate and there may be unintended memory errors.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Hey, it's me. So, I've been racking my brains to try to think of a topic for our next episode, and I realized that I think what I want to talk about is something that we've been saying we could talk about for a long time, and we just haven't really done it yet, and that is dating. Part of the reason why I want to talk about that is because I kind of feel like talking about that part of the reason why we haven't talked about it yet is because both dating and talking about dating kind of feel awful right now, and I think I want to lean into that. So, let me know what you think.
[Music]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So I thought that even though I kind of don't want to, that we could talk about dating, because among other things, you've been saying that we should talk about dating since before we actually recorded the first episode, and we've never done it, and also it's just something on my mind lately. As we are recording this, I have been single now for about two months, which is not a long time. But I noticed that recently I have come to this point that I seem to come to around this, this, point, it seems to be a bit of a pattern where I get a couple months into being single and I just think, I'm probably going to die alone [laughs]. But yes, dating.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Mmmhmmm [laughs]. Yeah. Yes. I would also like to talk about dating. I, my current status is that I have been single since, Michael broke up with me two years ago? No, I guess not. But also I don't want to get like, so sidetracked into the definitions of what it means to be single or what dating is or dating versus casual sex or, you know, friends with benefits, which I've never had, but I've heard such a thing exists [laughs]. And then like, you know, like all of these other things, like I just recently changed my dating apps. Well, I'm currently, I still am technically paying for Bumble and Feeld and I'm on the free version of Hinge. And I, a few weeks ago, my Bumble and Feeld subscriptions are going to run out at the end of this month and I'm not going to renew them, but I'm actually kind of liking Hinge, and just two nights ago, maybe in part, because I knew we were going to talk about dating or just, I don't know, lots of different reasons. And also, the recent incredibly nice 24 hours I spent with Phil and then the very strange, confusing follow up to that, which I don't even understand what is happening, if anything, but anyway, I updated my Hinge profile in a way that I really like, like, I put some goofy pictures of me on there, like, I put a picture of me in a bathing suit getting out of the ocean recently. So it's like, it's very cold. You can see that I'm wearing like boots and a bathing suit and a hat [laughs], a wool hat. And I don't know if you're on Hinge, but there are these like prompts that, which I used to hate Hinge the most of any of the dating apps, but I'm, for some reason I'm kind of liking it right now.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I'm not currently on Hinge, but, or any other dating apps, but I have been on Hinge before, and I assume that I will be again at some point.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. So they have these prompts, you know, as you remember. And so I put the picture of me in the bathing suit, like with the kind of Penobscot right behind me. And I wrote the, the prompt was “low key flex” [laughs] And like, you can see it's winter.
[5:00]
And then I put a short time lapse video. I think you've seen it because I sent it with one of my updates of me doing a shoulder stand on my terrace in the sunrise with the dog, like, very confused about me. And you can see me, like, in my pajamas, do this, like, funny, like, Charlie Chaplin-ish, like, shoulder stand.
I feel like these pictures are more authentic to… not that I ever had like filters or any of that stuff. Anyway. And also what I did was I changed, there's like two things that are like, what you're looking for in a relationship and also monogamy, non monogamy, stuff like that. I changed those recently. So I don't know, I'm confused about whether, I'm confused about everything having to do with dating.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I think that everybody is [laughs]. I think everybody is confused about everything related to dating. I am not currently trying to date. I told myself after my girlfriend and I broke up that I was going to give myself to at least the end of the year to be single and to not even try to date, not be on any of the apps.
And I, it's not that I've been without any moments of like, I should probably just go ahead and restart one of my accounts, but then I don't do it. And there's a lot of reasons for that. Like I don't, I've got just too many things going on right now, like the holidays and travel and organizing and podcast stuff. And I don't really just, I don't want to deal with more stuff right now. But also I have this notion that after a breakup that I should spend some time by myself. And I don't know if that is actually a good thing to do or not, but it is the thing that I'm doing.
But I'm in a weird space right now where, you know, every other week my kids go back to their mom's house and then I'm by myself in my house. I don't even have a pet anymore. I don't really want to get a pet, but like, I get really maudlin and lonely when my kids are not here, and I start thinking about like how alone I am and I try to reach out to people and mostly people are too busy to get together. And it's just kind of is what it is. And so I think, yes, I definitely need to start dating at some point. But the prospect of going back on the apps or even trying to meet people organically sounds awful. It sounds awful and exhausting. And I kind of don't believe that anybody actually likes it [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: That anyone likes it?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: That anyone likes the process of dating, you know, like of, of going on these apps of meeting people, meeting strangers, having to feel people out and figure out what, whether or not this person is, you know, weird or a creep or, you know, whether you even have enough in common to meet up for coffee at some point, and then you go on a coffee date and you have this, like, very surface level, meaningless conversation and you're trying to see, is there anything here to go on another date with this person, and, after you've been doing this for a while, like the, maybe the first few times you're like, okay, yeah, I'm not really feeling anything with this one. So, you know, we'll just part ways and you know, it's, it was nice to meet you. But then after you've been doing it for a few months and you go on like, you know, 10 first dates where you're like, I don't know, then, then maybe you're thinking, maybe I should just like give this, give people more of a chance. ‘Cause like, what are you even going to know after only talking to somebody for an hour? So then you go on second and third dates with people, but like, I don't know. What? Why? Why? [Laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Okay. So first of all, that's not actually how dating really has been for me, what you just described. Just because I don't think I've had second and third dates with anybody.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, that's not true [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, first of all, there are people who like what you're describing. There are people who like dating.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I know. I don’t understand it.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I hate it. But also that's not exactly how it's been for me because I don't know how to have a surface level conversation. And either, I don't have a second date with someone, or I generally tend to sleep with them probably too soon.
[9:53]
But maybe before we talk about that, other than not dying alone, which I know is a goal of yours [laughs], what -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: My actual goal is just not die [laughs]
RACHEL ZUCKER: See, I don't share that with you. You know, what would be your fantasy of like a great situation for you right now?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: A great situation for me?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Like what are you looking for? What are you hoping for? What are you, if you, what would it look like in a reasonable way? And by reasonable, I really don't mean like, what you think you deserve or what you think you're worth or any of that shit. I really mean like, maybe what you want is to be with someone who you've been with for 30 years, but that's not really on the menu right now. Right?
So I mean, like within, within the context of like, yeah, what would it look like? Do you, do you think you want somebody to be with when you're not with your kids? Do you think you want someone to be with all the time? Like, would you ideally like to meet someone and, and get married again? Would you like to live with someone? Would you like to, you know, is it the sex that you miss the most? Is it the companionship? Is it, are you looking for a, a gamer [laughs]? Like, you know, I just, I just, I'm curious. You're not, I, I don't know if you feel like talking about that.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I’m gonna make you answer that question too.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I'm happy to. Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I, the main thing for me is that I, I miss having more people in my life, and there's lots of ways to have people in my life. For example, I can, you know, start listening to someone's podcast and then meet them at a literary conference and then over the course of several years, become friends with them and then make a podcast with them. Like that's a way that I can have people in my life.
RACHEL ZUCKER: For example.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: For example. And, you know, I can have people in my life somewhat tangentially through talking to them on social media. It's a thing that I do regularly. I can have people in my life by, you know, going to organizing meetings and having a group of people that I know I share at least some important values with that I'm going to be seeing on a regular basis because we're doing a thing together. I could try to make friends in a more traditional kind of way, too.
I know that those things are things that I need in addition to having a romantic relationship, but there's something about having somebody like to come home to, somebody who I'm interested to talk to and who is interested to talk to me, somebody who I feel safe with, who I feel like I can take care of, but doesn't need me to take care of them. Somebody who will take care of me, but I don't need them to take care of me. That's what I want. Yeah. And if it's something where I'm also having sex with that person, that's great, too. I think that sex for me, I mean, it is something that I enjoy on a physical level, but it's, it's always more about having some kind of a connection with a person than it is about the actual physicalness of it. Just having, I mean, lately I, when my kids are not with me and when I get up in the morning, I will just put a podcast on a speaker rather than having it be in my headphones because having somebody else's voice in my house feels necessary to me.
I have this impression that people ought to be able to be on their own and feel comfortable with that. And that kind of thing. I don't feel like I need a lot of alone time. I do need to be able to spend time on the things that I, that, that nourish me, you know, like being able to make a podcast or being able to read books or things like that, being able to make things or go to meetings with people or whatever. I do need time to be able to do those things, but that doesn't feel like the bulk of, like, it feels like I spend a lot more time just by myself, that I'd rather not be spending that time by myself [laughs]. What are you looking for?
[15:00]
You date a lot more than I do, and have been this whole time.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, that's, that's only true because you had a girlfriend.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I guess that's true.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, what I want keeps changing; some parts of it keep changing, some of it doesn't. Like, I really do need a lot of time alone, and I don't have it. And so that's hard. And I think sex is a really high priority for me. So I think, I think if I'm going to be honest, you know, the last, I say, I can't call it a relationship, but like whatever that 24 hours was that I spent with Phil was really interesting, because what he was communicating to me was that he is very unabashedly interested in a very significant monogamous, long term relationship.
And it had been a little while since I'd been on a first date or even like chatting over the dating apps or with a man who was so straightforward about wanting that. A lot of the men that I'd been on first dates with, and there really haven't been that many first dates, but I have been on the apps, you know, pretty consistently, I mean, like I'll be on the apps and then I'll be like, I fucking hate these apps. And then I'll like, go off the apps for like, you know, five days, but it's usually I go back, you know, I'm, I'm pretty motivated. I think I do have a feeling that if I stop, for real, that I'll never start again. And I don't want that, you know, I don't want to be for me, it's not about dying alone. It's it's about, I think I could accept being alone, and I think there are a lot of things that are really good for me about being alone. But I think that a lot of, when I go off the dating apps, a lot of times it's because I think I don't deserve somebody and I feel like I don't have a lot to offer. And my history of my relationship with men is very, very much about taking care of them and taking care of their needs and, you know, supporting them financially and emotionally and, you know, practically and cooking for them.
And, right now I, you know, my caregiving responsibilities are, are enormous, and I used to kind of have a whole thing like I'm too, you know, because of my marriage and all this internalized misogyny and, and bullshit and whatever. Like I used to feel like, I'm too old, who, you know, which man would want somebody who's my age and looks like me and is so, you know, neurotic and, you know, all this stuff.
I kind of had just gotten to the point where I was like, who wouldn't want a 52 year old in reasonably, you know, healthy 52 year old woman who loves sex and is, you know, fine I look like this, but like, whatever, you know? I had kind of gotten over that. But then now I have, I'm having to get over like, who would want me when I have so much other caregiving responsibilities, you know, that I, I don't really feel like I have a lot to offer a man in the way that I have previously, you know, been in relationships with men.
So, sorry, this is like a long way of saying this, but I think I had convinced myself until recently that I just was looking for a friends with benefits situation, because what I really wanted, I mean, I just, I miss sex so much. And it's not just sex. It's just like physical touch and, and intimacy. And for the most part, I don't find like first time sex with a new partner to be very good. And I don't like first dates, and I don't, I really don't, I don't like second dates, and I don't like the newness of it. That's not exciting to me. So I kind of was thinking like, well, all I could imagine for myself, and I don't even really know what this would look like, is, you know, sex with a partner, consistent sex with the same partner, you know, who I could trust and, you know, stuff like that.
But I think that that 24 hours that I spent with Phil and, you know, leading up to it and, and for the few days afterwards, like, I really kind of got in touch with how much I really do want a relationship, like a partner. And that, I think I had convinced myself I, I didn't want that because I didn't think that was going to happen for me. And I think I was too afraid to get in touch with that, that desire because I was too afraid of the disappointment and, you know, and that not happening.
[20:05]
So I think what I'm really looking for right now, and it's hard to communicate this on the dating apps, is I'm really looking for two different things that could be the same thing. I really would like a partner. I feel ready for a partner. I feel ready for a life partner. I don't even know exactly what that would look like. I know that I had thought that, you know, sleeping in the same bed and sleeping overnight is a big deal to me. And that's, there's not a lot of people that I, that I can sleep with. Like not sex, but like the sleeping part of it. And I had convinced myself that like, I just don't want that. Like, I never want to share my bedroom. I never want to live with someone. I never, you know, want to do that again.
But that's, that's not true. I really miss that. I really, I really want, I don't know how it could happen for me at this point in my life, but like, I really want touch, I really want sex. And I really, I just want at the end of, these days are so hard and so unremittingly, you know, difficult. And I don't, I'm not looking for somebody to support me financially or emotionally, or certainly not parent my kids or anything like that. But just like, I just want to get in bed at the end of the day with somebody and have them hold me, you know?
And yeah. In the meantime, I would really like some sex, you know, or some physical intimacy or some touch with someone that, you know, isn't going to give me an STD and isn't going to be an awful person and is, you know, isn't going to… Yeah. Yeah. But I don't– Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: It's interesting to hear you say that the reason that you get off of the apps, even for brief periods, is more to do with how you feel about yourself, because you tell me about the interactions that you have with men on these apps, and by and large, the interactions, my response is to when you send me screenshots of your interactions with men from these apps, how would you characterize my responses to these things?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Delightful. So, so affirming.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I feel like I use a lot of, a lot of interrobangs, you know?
RACHEL ZUCKER: [Laughs]. What's that?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: It's where, it's where you have a question mark and an exclamation point [laughs]. I feel like I use a lot of capital letters and yelling questions. And that I say fuck a lot.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I mean, I don't understand for the life of me what is going on with the men. Like it's true. I don't, I really don't, I don't understand men. I mean, we haven't really talked about this. I mean, there's not much to say.
Like I do match with women and I'm, and I, you know, sometimes I think I just, I'm just not sexually attracted to women or I haven't been, you know, but other than you and like maybe, I'm trying to think, you know, my friend John Colton, like the men are not great.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: No.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Men are not great.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: No, they're not.
RACHEL ZUCKER: They're, they're babies. They're fragile. They're, they haven't done like “the work,” you know, they, they complain endlessly about their ex wives. If they have ex wives, they, they're just, they're pretty awful.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You know, partly because this is you know, what I hear from you and most of my friends are women, right? Most of my close friends are women, so I hear a lot of things about men from my women friends, and because for whatever reason the social media algorithms on TikToK and Instagram or wherever seem to have decided that I'm probably a lesbian [laughs], you know, I mean that very literally, like, like not just in terms of what videos I get shown, but also what advertisements, because I get a lot of advertisements for like menstrual products and I don't, I don't understand exactly, but you know, most of the time when I, when I encounter women talking about men, you know, they're talking about how men are a challenge. To put it in, like, perhaps the most generous possible way. And rightly so, like, all of the interactions that you and these other women describe are ones that I find vexing as well.
[25:04]
And that also align with my experience of, of other men. So it's like, you know, I also find these things vexing, but the idea that the thing that you find challenging about dating is yourself is surprising to me.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, I'm getting better. Like, you know, after Michael broke up with me and I was just like devastated, devastated, devastated, Erin gave me this book called, oh God, what is it called? It's a breakup book. I can't remember what it's called, but you know, I read the breakup book. It was actually very helpful. Oh, she actually gave it to me when I got divorced, but I didn't read it until Michael broke up with me.
And you know, it has a whole thing about no contact and this and that and the other thing. And then it has a thing about like, when you’re ready to start dating again. And one of the things that she says is to really, really try, when you're with another person to really think, do I like this other person? And when you catch yourself wondering, do they like me?- to shift back into your own perspective?
And I have been working on that, and the bar has been way too low for men for me. And yeah, I'm really trying to, to, to think much more about what I'm looking for, what I want, if I like someone, you know, recently, you know, I matched with a guy, I can't remember which app, and he kind of checked a lot of boxes, he was handsome enough, my age, that's what I like, lives in New York, is liberal, because, you know, like, who is, who is putting moderate on their dating profile right now?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Conservative people.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right. That's right. It's like the men who say they're six feet tall and they're not. So anyway, he, his was liberal and he was like, you know, there was a picture of him with some book on feminism, you know, like in the dating profile, whatever he checked, he was interesting enough. And so I did what I have learned to do the hard way, which is to have a video chat before an in person first date, because some of those, as you know, have gone very badly. I mean, remember the guy who like slammed his coffee cup down and like stormed off and like scared the fuck out of me on the first date because I didn't want to continue the date and he was like berating me? “How's it going? How's it going? I'm really into this.” And I was just like, oh my God. Yeah. So now I, I really make sure to have a video chat first.
And so I had a video chat with this guy. I mean, for our first date, he kept inviting me to the dress rehearsal of his play. And I was just like, that is not going to be a fun first date for me [laughs]. You know, and he, he tried, like he, he explained Buddhism to me and then he explained MFA programs to me. He's never gotten an MFA or taught in an MFA program. Whereas I have. No, he explained that to me. He explained young people to me. He, I, and I just was like, on the phone like watching this guy and it took it took me about, you know, 20 minutes to be like, why am I still on the phone with this man [laughs]? Like, just because he's like alive and handsome enough. And like, like what? My standards cannot be this low. Like, come on, Rachel.
And then I still was like, great. You know, great. So maybe we'll hang out, because I can't say even over, over the FaceTime. I, my, I have a lot of fear of men that's, you know, pretty sublimated, but I can't say to a man on a first date, you know, like I'm just not feeling it. You know, I can't, I can do that after, but I can't do it, you know, and I'm, I've sort of forgiven myself a little bit, but in any case, I'm getting better at being like, this man is not worth your continued attention. Stop. You know, it's just not a good fit. Like I don't have to, I mean, there's plenty of stories that -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You don’t owe them anything.
RACHEL ZUCKER: That's right. I don't owe them anything. I don't owe them anything. Yeah. I'm getting better at it. And I think that's… it's both because I've been through so many shitty dates and, and also because like, I don't know, I've learned a bunch of shit.
[28:58]
I don't have time for it, but yeah, my own insecurities and my sense of self and, and my understanding of like relationships, like I'm still learning. And I think, you know, I think you have this too like, there's a lot of things I know about how to have a long term relationship, because I had one. I know very little about how to have an adult short term relationship. These are, these things are still very, very, very new to me.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah.
RACHEL ZUCKER: And like, every time I do have an experience with a new man, I really learn something new about myself and what I like and what I don't like. And, you know, I'd never met somebody like Phil before I met Phil, um, and I really liked how he presented himself to me. And I was, I was like, oh, I didn't know this was a choice for me, that like a man could be like this, you know, then it turned out to be completely confusing afterwards, unfortunately.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I would just, I just, one of the things, this guy that you were just describing [laughs] is that I have a really deep skepticism of any man who goes out of his way to portray himself as a feminist.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Mm hmm.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Like a man who's like strategically including feminist literature in his daily life. Dating profile pictures, like to me, that seems like… yeah, I don't know about you.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I know. So, so I totally agree. I mean, I get a lot of men pointing guns at me in their dating profile.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Jesus Christ [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: So that's less appealing to me than the, than the like virtue signaling, you know, feminist book in hand at like what looks like his own Ted Talk, which there's not a lot in between men pointing guns at me and men giving a Ted Talk on feminism.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Unfortunately [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yes. Yeah. I can certainly see how between those two options, which would be the one that feels more acceptable [laughs]. I think this question of like, you know, do I like this person, is really tricky for me, because something that I really struggle with is that I like almost everybody and I don't like almost anybody at the same time. I think we may have even talked about this on the show before. I don't remember, but like I, I know we've talked about it offline before. But like, I legitimately think that almost everyone is an interesting person and that if I get to know them and their story, that there will be something that I find interesting about them and something that I admire about them, something that I respect about them and something that I will want to continue connecting with about them.
And also at the same time, I find almost nobody to be actually interesting in a day to day kind of like, I'm getting something out of this interaction kind of way. You know, almost nobody is somebody who can make me laugh regularly or that I really want their opinion about something or that I think like, oh, I really want to tell this person this thing about that that happened to me, because I really want them to know about it, or a thing where like, you know, even if it's something as, as mundane as just watching TV together that like, I care about what they think about that show, you know, like. Almost nobody. And so I'm like simultaneously feel like really an open and curious person and, and also just completely misanthropic and judgmental and condescending about everybody [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: I totally share that. I get, I really get that. And I think it's, you know, I worry that I'll end up with someone that I don't really like, or that's not a good match for me, because I, I do feel curious so much. And even, and even people I don't like in certain ways, or whose, whose energy doesn't match mine, or however you want to put it, I'm so like driven to kind of know their story and understand who they are and like figure out, you know, the dynamic between us. And I mean, I'm, I'm proud of that curiosity. And, and there's, one of the things I was going to ask you is like, what are the deal breakers for you?
[34:48]
‘Cause one deal breaker for me is, is somebody who's just not curious, you know, who doesn't want to know about me, about themselves, about other people, you know? But I worry that, that my curiosity is, has been too strong compared to my discernment. And that once I feel connected to someone, I can kind of fall in love pretty easily in a lot of ways. And that's not, that's not always good for me. And the other thing is like, I have a very hard time believing when a man is interested in me. So like if he's too good looking and he's interested in me, I assume he's like a sociopath and he's going to murder me, you know [laughs]? Or if he's too nice and he's interested in me. I'm like, what's the deal? I don't understand.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Some of the men who you, who you, at least the ones that you tell me about, it's not like, they are being too nice. You know, like they are like being weirdly love bomb-y or just strange in how nice they're being to you. And that doesn't feel like an authentic kindness or interest. It just feels like some kind of a tactic.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right. And I think, you know, I ended up marrying somebody who was pretty obsessed with me. But that kind of obsession or interest is not… I need a man to be enthusiastic right now about me. I really need enthusiasm and I need someone who thinks I'm really terrific. But I really am afraid and cautious about somebody who likes me way too much, way too soon. That's just never been okay. And so dating is very complicated in, in that way for me. Yeah.
So I don't know, but, but, but, you know, I hear what you're saying, like that, that on the one hand, you're sort of curious about everybody, but on the other hand, there's like, who is going to really match you perfectly or well enough in, in all of the daily ways, and going to sustain your interest and going to, you know, have a certain kind of style. So I guess, I guess it's a similar question to the first question of like, what are you looking for? Which are, which is like, what are the qualities in a person that seem essential to you? Because you're not going to get all of them, right? You're not going to get somebody who likes all the same things in exactly the same way and you know, is exactly the right match for you. But what are the things that are deal breakers or positively put like, what are the essential things for you?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, the deal breakers are probably easier, but they also fall into different categories. Like, there are the kinds of deal breakers that are like, these are the things that I'm finding out in the first couple of times I meet somebody and I don't want to talk to them anymore. You know, like I went on a date with a woman who turned out to be a TERF and she didn't let me know that until the second date. And then I didn't want to talk to her anymore. You know? So like, there's certain values, for example, that have to be shared, like, you know, an openness to diversity and to, you know, not being conservative, you know, or, or even people who are like politically like, oh, it's just politics. It doesn't matter. Like I can't, I can't do that with people, right? Like there's a certain baseline level of, we have to have certain values in common. Otherwise I just don't even want to talk to that person as a friend, you know, because I just feel like our worldviews are so different that like, I'm not going to be able to talk to that person in any meaningful kind of way.
But that actually does sort of get at something that is a longer term thing, which is, can I feel safe with this person? Right, like, I went on a date with someone and then she starts talking about how she doesn't think that trans women should be able to use women's bathrooms. That's obviously a bad match in a lot of ways. But the way that it affects me most personally is that I don't feel like I can talk to this person without having to watch what I say, because they feel dangerous to me now.
But there are other ways that a person can feel dangerous that, I'm not going to be able to find that out until I've known them for a while. And this comes up for me because, partly because of, you know, the ways that I suspect that I'm on the spectrum. I have, I communicate in ways that are different from most people. That's been true for my entire life. Is this a person who I'm going to be able to talk to them and they will have any curiosity about what's going on with me? Or is it that what their concern is, is they, they need me to conform to them, right?
[39:55]
And there's very few people in my life who I've ever met who don't turn out to be the latter, right? Who, who don't turn out to be like, what this is about, is about they need me to learn how to be what they want, and they have no interest or ability in trying to understand me or where I'm coming from, like, if we're going to come into conflict, which is something that is going to happen in any relationship, if we're going to come into conflict, how is that going to work out? That's not something I can know from the first three or four dates, right? Like, I kind of have to be in a relationship with that person for a while.
If we, if someone hurts my feelings and we come into conflict over that, is it always going to work out that I have to take care of their feelings because now I've made them feel bad because they hurt my feelings, and then my feelings, my hurt feelings never get addressed? That's a really common interaction for me, is that someone will hurt my feelings, and then I have to apologize to them about it. That's not something where I feel safe. That's, that ends up being something where, now, I no longer feel close to this person. So that's a deal breaker.
The inverse of that would be like, you know, is this a person who I legitimately feel like I can talk to without having to be really guarded? Like I think to some degree I should, I do need to just be aware of the fact that the things that I say and do are going to potentially have an impact on other people. So I can't just like spout off whatever with anybody. But like, is this a thing where I feel like I can communicate the way that I communicate and trust that this person is going to meet me there? There's not a lot of people who are like that for me, and there never have been.
I think also something that's really important for me is that like, is this a person who can make me laugh like consistently who, where I feel like our senses of humor mesh really well? ‘Cause that's another thing where I don't feel like a lot of people, like I often feel like really weird, you know, in what I think is funny or people will send me things that, I mean, honestly, the, you know, if I'm like TikTok friends with someone, most of the time that's videos they send me, aren't going to make me laugh out loud, but that's fine.
It's like, is it… not that you're sending me things that don't regularly make me laugh out loud? That would be kind of an unreasonable expectation, but it's like, are you ever sending me anything that I even think is a little bit amusing, or like, I don't know, some people send, like, I have these quote unquote friendships with people and, like, every video they send me is, like, they're laughing about it and I'm like, this makes me uncomfortable. I don’t like this [laughs]. You know?
So, you know. And again, that comes down to a feeling of safety. I don't think I have to match perfectly. I don't think I can match perfectly with anyone, but is this a person who I feel comfortable with being my actual self? And is this a person who, being with them and interacting with them makes me feel good? Is something that I look forward to, you know?
RACHEL ZUCKER: And you, you had earlier said that it's not something that you can know until you've kind of been in a relationship with them for a little while. I'm just trying to, I'm like having a practical moment where I'm trying to imagine like when you do go back into the dating pool again, are there ways that you can put yourself out there into the world where you're prioritizing this quality or finding this quality in a way, you know, I don't know whether it's about, it doesn't sound like it's about changing your profile, you know, or asking different kinds of questions on the first date.
But I just, I just, I don't know. I wonder if there's like ways for you to, either be patient and realize like, you know, you can have fun. I don't even know what that looks like, you know, in the early stages of dating someone, but you're just not going to know whether they are someone that you feel can really trust for a little while, and that's just kind of a bummer. And you're going to have to like give it five dates or, you know, whatever, or is there a way to suss that out earlier on, and walk away faster and trust yourself to know that you're going to keep looking for that person who has that quality and that, you know, you'll find it? But like, I don't know.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, that is the $64,000 question. I don't know, you know, I think that this last relationship that I was in that lasted over a year is a really good example of that, you know, where ultimately it wasn't a good match. I did walk away from it, but I, well, one, like it took me a long time to realize it wasn't a good match.
[45:06]
And two, like, I don't think that it was a bad match for her. I think that she was getting what she needed out of the, out of the relationship. And that's really hard for me. We say things like, well, you don't owe anybody anything. Certainly on the first date, you don't owe anybody anything. After you've been dating someone for a year, maybe you do owe them something at that point. And maybe what you owe them is like, to be open about the fact that the relationship isn't working for you anymore? I don't know. But, I mean, I tried, I tried to make it work, but it didn't work for me. I don't know.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, I, you know, I don't want to tell you about your relationship, but my hearing about it from you, tell me if this seems accurate. It seems like there were a lot of good things in the relationship that, things that were working for you that made you happy, but also this essential thing wasn't. I don't know whether it was as clear to you that that wasn't present between the two of you, that it wasn't something that could change and, and work. And I also don't know fully that, that you would have been as clear at the beginning of that relationship as you are now about this essential quality of being able to trust.
I'm not saying that's like new information to you, but in the way in which you understand it now, I think it was, is partly because of that relationship. And so it's, it seems to me to be quite unfair for you to, to imagine that like, you should have known that earlier, or you should have done something different or, you know…
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I think that, I think that early on in the relationship, I did have that trust. And it was perhaps not as there as I perceived it to be at that stage. And that wasn't something that I could have known until we had come into conflict more times.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't blame myself for that. What I do blame myself for is, and this I think is a, a problem that has been, it was true in my marriage also, right? Is that, if I'm being honest with myself, I don't think I was ever as interested in her as she was in me, and I don't think that I was ever, I think one, I was more, I was more enthralled with being desired than I was that I had a positive desire towards her, and also that I feel like I have some responsibility to see things through or to give people a chance or that, you know, like in my marriage, I don't think that the two of us ever really should have gotten married in the first place.
If I'm being really honest, there were things about my marriage that worked really well for me and that I liked. There were things that, you know after a while and and still actually, she became my family, you know, in a way that, you know I've come to realize that I, that in the same way that I love my family, I do still love my ex wife and I always will, I don't know if she feels that way about me. But I think this last relationship was very eye opening for me in terms of the ways that I didn't show up in my marriage, right?
That like, you know, I used to talk a lot about how she didn't like me, you know, and I think that's true. And I think that that's not entirely my fault, that that is something that, you know, we both contributed to the failure of that relationship, but I think, you know, what I've come to realize is that, like, I actually wasn't as interested in her as someone should be if they're married to someone. And you know, I think that's really hurtful. Like if you're, if you're in a relationship with someone and you, and you have this recognition that they're not that interested in you, but they're not breaking up with you, like that doesn't feel good.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I can say that for sure because like, we were both doing that to each other. Like neither one of us was actually interested in the other one and both of us felt bad about it. And I'm not saying this to like chastise myself or saying I should have done something differently, but rather just like, this is an interesting pattern for me, like becoming really enamored of the fact that someone wants me is, like, that's not a good enough reason to be in a long term relationship with someone. And also like me having some kind of like male guilt and trying to make up for all of the things that my gender does in the world and specifically to women, like that's also not like a good foundation for a relationship [laughs].
[50:12]
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I feel like I've been talking about myself way more than usual in this episode [laughs]. Is that good for you?
RACHEL ZUCKER: I, it's so interesting you say that because I was just thinking to myself, Mike is really talking about himself very openly with like, not that you're, that you don't do that other times, but something does feel different to me right now. And I, I almost considered asking you about it. And then I was like, just don't don't just, just stay in the conversation. Don't ask him to talk about how the conversation is feeling. But you brought it up.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah, because, because it's never like I, I mean, we've talked about this before. It's never not on my mind that, I'm a man and you're a woman. And you know, you were just describing to me a man who was explaining a bunch of stuff to you that you had more experience with than he did. And a man who was, like, not actually curious and asking questions.
And I know that that's not the nature of our friendship, that I am curious about you and I do ask you lots of questions, and I do spend a lot of time listening to your answers to those questions. So I know that that's not actually what our friendship is like. But being on a podcast with you and making you listen to me, not making, but like talking about myself, like it does feel like I'm taking up too much of the space in the room [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, I've said this before on this podcast and many, many times to you in our messages, but I do think that our friendship and our relationship has been a very important part of my dating life because I get to work through a lot of these questions, you know, or these issues that I have with men, with you, in a platonic space where, you know, you've reassured me countless times that you like me and care about me and find me interesting. And I know it's not because I cook for you [laughs]. I know it's not because I give you blow jobs because we don't do those things [laughs]. So –
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Can I just say, it’s really important to me that we don't do those things, like that is like a really important part of our friendship that we're just friends. You know?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right. Yeah. And so even in the, in a moment like this, to, to like, not just think through, but feel through, do I feel that you're, you know, talking too much? No, I don't. A few times I've had the urge to ask you like, well, what should I be doing differently in my dating life? Because, you know, you, you know, I could hear it from you, you know, like I could hear stuff from you that might be hard for me to hear from someone else or, you know?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I can tell you something that I think would be hard for you to hear.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay. Tell me.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: It's not your fault.
RACHEL ZUCKER: What’s it's not my fault?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: The fact that you're dating life isn't going the way that you want it to.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: It's a little bit outside of your control. Part of it is because of the situation of your life, which is not a good one, you know, for being able to turn your attention outside of that. And that's nobody's fault. And part of it is because most men are awful. And it's not that you're doing anything wrong in these interactions, it's that they're doing a lot of things wrong in the interactions.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah, that is hard to hear because I so want there to be like something I can do.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah, cuz then it would be under your control, right?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. We'll come back to that. But even like this, this feels like a very gendered part of our relationship where I want you to tell me what to do, or what's going to happen or, and I think I do look to men for that, and have complicated feelings about, that I haven't totally worked through, you know, about whether I'm looking for a man who's confident and directive in certain ways, you know, and kind of like containing for me, or whether I need to look for men who are not going to go into that role.
[55:06]
You know, who are like, how would I possibly know what you should do with your life? You know? I, I don't know. And obviously there's a lot in between, but yeah, no, it's, it's interesting talking to you about dating, in part because I feel like there's no action steps [laughs]. You know, it's funny. It's funny to chat in like in a way I'm having the experience that you sometimes have, I think, about like subject matter, right? Like part of me is like, what are we even talking about, and why? – right now, which is like weird because I was the one who like has been so excited to talk about dating, but I kind of don't even know –
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Maybe it's just enough for the two of us to sit together in the bad feelings [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really–
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't think our friendship is really strongly tied to a pattern of telling each other what we should do.
RACHEL ZUCKER: That's true. I feel really sad right now.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: What's that about?
RACHEL ZUCKER: I think I feel really grateful that, you know, like you were talking about earlier, that you have people in your life. You know, in all of these important ways, but you want more people in your life. And also you specifically want a romantic partner. And I feel really grateful that like a lot of the things that I want out of a romantic relationship, I am getting from my friends, including, and very significantly from you.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Likewise.
RACHEL ZUCKER: But I really do want this other thing, you know, and I have more and more faith that I will be okay, whether it happens for me or not. And that, you know, even if I continue for the rest of my life to have a series of disappointing and funny and infuriating interactions with men, like forever, I'll be okay.
You know, but I do feel like I was married for so long and I was really so unhappy for, for so much of it. And I feel like, then I had this like really amazing relationship where I experienced a kind of intimacy and a kind of sex that I'd never experienced before, but it was also really fucked up and really codependent and he wasn't in the right place and he wasn't the right person for me and I didn't know enough about myself, and the kinds of like codependent shit that was going on. But I learned a lot, you know, and I feel like two years after the breakup I really am ready to see what it's like to be in a really intimate relationship with someone without that kind of codependency. Like I feel ready to, to try that.
And I don't know if I'm ever going to have that. And I, and I feel really sad about it. And I feel like, you know, also my primary relationships right now, are with my three sons and with my ex-husband, and a lot of it feels like sub-violent abuse. Like, I spend a lot of time worrying about doing and saying the right things to not upset Abram, to not upset Josh. And I spend a lot of time, like I just have, I have so much contact with my ex-husband. And it's, it's really not good for me. It's like, it's really, it's just like being in a relationship with someone that I should really break up with and not see, which is what I did. And now I still have to see him.
And yeah, I feel sorry for myself. I have very little freedom at a time in my life where I fought really hard for some sexual liberation, some sexual experiences and learning about myself. And yeah. I just remember, you know, when I was getting divorced and then when I was having my cancer scare and I was having all those health issues, and I just remember saying to my therapist, like, I just kind of need you to tell me that I'm going to have a chance, you know, before I die, having some kind of happiness with a man.
[1:00:30]
And I might not. So…
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah, you might not.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah,
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I might not either.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. You know, I, I feel certain that you will. It's interesting. And I, I really, I'm not saying that. Like, I just feel, I just feel certain that you will.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, it's easier to be certain about somebody else's future happiness than about your own. That's one. It's also that you and I have very different and sometimes opposite problems when it comes to relationships. You know, I don't have, you know, partly this is because I'm a man and people don't expect things of men in the same way. Partly this is because of the difference in our temperaments and difference in what we want out of life. But I don't have the kinds of problems where I've got lots of people who are demanding things of me that I don't have the energy to give them, you know, whether or not I even want to, you know, I don't have that. That's a different thing for me. Like a lot of my last relationship and one of the things that I did find really fulfilling about it was, is that I did feel good about being able to take care of her, you know, about being able to do all the cooking and cleaning and emotional support and stuff like that, that was great for me, you know, and it made me feel really good about myself, but you know, that's, that's, that's a really different kind of thing from what's going on with you.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: And I think both of us have a situation where we are, where we are, where we have these needs that are not being met. And because of something about our lives, whether it's structural, misogyny and patriarchy or neurodivergence or whatever, we don't trust that that need is ever going to get met, right? But it's easier to feel like the other person's needs probably will because it's a set of problems that we're not dealing with personally, you know?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah, but I mean, be honest, Mike. Can you possibly imagine who is going to sign up for what I've got going on? Like, I mean –
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, here's what I'll tell you. Here's what I'll tell you –
RACHEL ZUCKER: How can you even imagine that?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I know that what, what is between you and me is not the same as what goes on in a romantic relationship. But I know from personal experience that being with you through all of the things that you've been through during our friendship is something that… it's not like it's felt bad to me, you know, it's something that I, I get something out of also, you know, being together through all of this, in the same way that you've been together with me through all of my bullshit, you know?
So, I feel like, and I know I'm not the only one of your friends who feels that way. So if there are people in this world who look at you as you and see clearly all the stuff that you are going through and all of the ways that you can be difficult to be around sometimes, and can, and look at all of the ways that, you know, sometimes, yeah, you can be a needy person, right? And say, yeah, we still want to be here for that, you know, in just the same way that, you know, I also can be a needy person and I also can be difficult to be around. And you don't seem to have a problem with any of that, you know, sometimes you call me on it, but you don't ever walk away from it, at least you haven't yet, you know. So, yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine someone signing up for this.
RACHEL ZUCKER: You know, maybe you can help me with this, like maybe I'm just not seeing it clearly, but it almost seems like there's this like structural problem that seems insurmountable. Like, what you're describing is that, you know, someone might, you know, fall in love with me and want to be with me if they knew all these things about me, and knew what it was like to be in a relationship with me over time. But how do you…
[1:05:00]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah, how do you get there? You can't
RACHEL ZUCKER: You can’t meet someone who already knows you [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah. That's exactly the problem. That's exactly my problem also.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right. Right. I mean, I think the people who like dating, like meeting new people. And then they get bored and, you know, or they, they only have, you know, the first two dates worth of interest in themselves and in other people, and we're sort of saying like, we want to skip to the 10th date, you know, and you just can't –
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I kinda wanna skip to the 10th year.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right, right. And you and you really can't. So I think that we have to change our thinking about this because that's just not…
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Right. Right. I don't think it's about dating apps versus non dating apps. I think that's a side thing, you know, like my therapist would really like me to stop sleeping with men until I have like a real strong foundation with them. I don't even think that's really what it's about. I think it's about changing my expectations.
Like, I think maybe if I can imagine a positive next two years for myself, right? Like what, what, what could I imagine that seems realistic and, and nice? And maybe this is helpful for me to have like reasonable expectations. I think it could happen.I have a FaceTime date tonight with a guy whose name is either Mike or John. I can't remember because all men are named Mike or John. And then, tomorrow, I have another FaceTime date with the other one who's either Mike or John. And both of them seem kind of promising. You know, they seem, there are boxes that they check, you know, that, that are interesting to me. You know, they're both spiritual, have some spiritual practice of some kind. But not AA. I, I really, I, I would like to take a break from the sober men of Brooklyn, having dated most of them, not really. Dated a few of them. It didn't, didn't, it wasn't all as it was cracked up to be.
I guess if I can be more discerning or demanding, and I don't allow myself to go on a bad first date or a bad second date, and I just continue to be open to meeting men and, and continue and not expecting a deep connection until like I've really known them for longer and get out of it immediately or as soon as possible, if any of the, you know, triggers come up and the bad stuff because I, I know some people need to stay in a relationship longer and they like sell themselves short and they sell the other person short by like getting out of it too quickly, and that's the opposite for me. I need to like do a better job being like, eh not for me. Thanks. Nice to meet you. Like sooner.
But then also if I do like them enough to have a second date, a third date, sleep with them whenever that is or not, I need to really have a different expectation about the kind of intimacy that is even appropriate to imagine and trust that I would have with a man, even after five dates, because I think that I've been imagining that it's like…
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, it's just like what you were saying you know, at the beginning, that you don't know how to have short relationships with people. You haven't as an adult had very many opportunities to be meeting people, right? Like you've, you and I have both spent the majority of our adult lives in one very long relationship and that's the only model of relationship that we have. That's exactly right. And, and both of us are trying to get used to this idea that that's not what the next one is going to look like.
RACHEL ZUCKER: And that it's not a failure, you know? So that you had a one year relationship is great. I know it's not easy when it turns out that it's not working. And what do you do about that? And I know that's really hard. And I know that it's hard breaking up. And I know that it's hard being single. But I think that like, maybe I need to just be more clear with myself that that I might be looking, if I'm lucky, it could be a good thing. I'll put it this way. It could be good for me, even though it sounds terrible [laughs], that in the next two years, I might have a bunch of, dates and maybe, you know, a few several month relationships, and that I might be single again in two years, and not to feel if two years from now, that's what has happened, that's okay.
[1:10:27]
That's not what I most want. But I think it would be helpful for me to think about that as a success, as a good thing going into it, as opposed to, if I don't find my friends with benefits or like my life partner, it's just awful. You know?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I think there's definitely something to be said for being able to come away from one of these experiences, a short term experience, and say, I got something out of that. I learned something about myself, and that makes it a success.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I think that sounds really, really healthy.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I mean, I think one of the things that you and I both have in common is this very deep need, which comes from a wound, which is, if we're not thoughtful about it, I'll, I'll say it for myself, because that's better. When I go into that place of feeling abandoned and neglected and unloved and unwanted and undesired, that's not a good place to have a, an adult relationship from. There's too much desperation there. There's, I can't, I can't be solid. Like that's something that I need to be on top of, you know, that, that if I'm feeling really vulnerable, really needy, you know, all that stuff, that's not a good place to go on a date with a new person from. That's a, that's a good time to talk to you or somebody who really knows me and loves me and has known me a long time and has been through a lot with me. Don't take that onto the dating apps for myself would be something important.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah, I could see that. I think that the way I think about it is that I'm, I don't know if it's wrong to like, in any either moral or health wise kind of sense, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to bring one's neediness to other people, even strangers. But I think that the danger, of course, is that if we're doing, if we're doing that and we're not being clear with ourselves about that's what we're doing, then it can lead to us getting hurt.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I would like to say the man I would like to manifest. The qualities. First of all, I just already said, I'm not looking for “the one” and it will be fine if I find several men that I have interesting relationships with and blah, blah, blah. Okay. But like, I’m just gonna put it out there.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Sure.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay. I would like to manifest in the world a man who is not a writer [laughs], but has read at least five books in his lifetime that he really loved and cared about, and who is really curious and engaged in something other than making money. Well, I, okay. Other than something that's, that requires the direct oppression of other people. Okay [laughs]. So like, I don't want someone who's like deeply engaged and curious about like how to get more Republicans elected.
Okay. I think I would like this man to have been extremely successful in some way in his life that he's no longer engaged in right now. So like either made a bunch of money and is retired or, you know, I know I said not –
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Just keep moving forward. You don't have to qualify it.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Successful, but not currently a workaholic.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay.
RACHEL ZUCKER: And I think, no recovering addicts, no active addicts, pot smokers are preferred, someone who really likes to eat good food, and somebody who knows how to take care of another person, either because they were, you know, or are a parent, or took care of somebody, but probably not somebody who has a lot of caregiving responsibilities right this minute.
[1:15:02]
I need to be with somebody who it's like kind of my turn, even though they didn't have their turn with me. I hope they got, somebody took care of them, and now they want to do a little more taking care of me. And sense of humor and a good voice and someone who really likes sex [laughs]. Yeah, that's what I'm looking for.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I hope you find it.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Thanks. Do you want to say what you're looking for or do you not, is that something that does not appeal to you?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I can say what I’m looking for.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I’m looking forward for you to date someone who's not white, but –
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah. Yeah. I do. I have wondered a lot how many of the difficulties I've had with certain kinds of connection have to do with only having dated white women before. Of course, then I wonder whether or not that's fair.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Who cares.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, I mean, this is the whole this is the whole thing with me being in a heterosexual relationship is like, trying to navigate what are the parts where I have to be sensitive to the other person's point of view, and what are the parts where I can feel confident in my own needs and experiences, you know, like that's–
RACHEL ZUCKER: Or preferences, too. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's okay to have preferences.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Sure. Who would I like to be with? I would like to be with someone who is curious about the world and other people. I would like to be with someone who is funny. That one feels very unfair because, that's like, I am not. So… [laughs]
RACHEL ZUCKER: That's not true, but okay.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I would like to be with someone who is a good sexual match for me. I would like to be with someone who, when I'm talking with them, can be surprising without being scary.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Mmmm. That's a good one. Do you care if this woman has children or not? Have you ever dated someone who has children?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I have not dated someone who has kids. No. I had, you know, some dates with women who had kids, but I never got to the point of, you know, a second date with them or third date. I guess I did go on two dates with that one lady who turned out to be a TERF. And she had kids, or a kid. Here's what I'll say about that. I'm open to dating someone who has kids, and I'm open to dating someone who doesn't have kids, but I am not really that interested in being with someone long term who, who doesn't have an ability to see things from other people's perspectives or to at least some of the time put someone else's needs over their own. That feels like a very fraught thing to say because I know like this world and men in particular are always asking women to put other people's needs above their own.
And to that point, like I have a lot of respect for women who are done with that, you know, and who don't want to have to do that anymore. And I get it. And also, I know from my own experiences that a person who can never put my needs ahead of theirs is not a person who makes me feel safe or feel good. You know? That if I always have to put their needs first, that doesn't feel okay to me, you know? And I've never been able to square like, me feeling like it's really important to be anti-patriarchal with also like saying, I need you to, to sometimes prioritize me. Like I've never been able to square those things.
RACHEL ZUCKER: But that's just like the, that makes so much sense to me, but it's the flip side of, I don't want to, you know, be in bed with the enemy, and like, you know, go out with some asshole guy. But I also, I don't want the man to hate his own masculinity, you know, and, and I want some of the qualities that I also don't like in men. I also want some of them. It's just, we're saying the same thing, you know?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah. We are saying the same thing kind of from the opposite ends, but yeah, I don't think that having children means that a woman is necessarily good at taking care of other people or prioritizing other people. And I don't think that not having children makes a, makes, means that a woman is, like necessarily doesn't have those qualities, you know?
[1:20:04]
But, I just know for myself that if I am going to be in a long term relationship with someone, that she has to be willing to emotionally meet me halfway. You know, that sometimes it's going to be, I'm actually okay with it most of the time being her turn, you know, but it has to sometimes be my turn. And if that's not the case, then I know that I'm not going to feel safe and fulfilled in the relationship.
It's very difficult for me to admit that out loud, and not feel like I'm being misogynist, you know? But I also, like, can recognize that admitting to having emotional needs is not an unreasonable thing [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: No, it's so important. Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I guess it would also be nice if she had a nice butt. I don't know.
RACHEL ZUCKER: [Laughs]. Yeah, that's good. It's good.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I will say like, you know, to that point, like, you know, it doesn't actually matter how attractive a person is. If they have a bad personality, I'm not going to want to sleep with them. And if, I guess I don't have any experience being with someone who I was never attracted to –
RACHEL ZUCKER: That's weird. That would be weird.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: But I think that like, if a person is, is interesting to me and like intellectually interesting and emotionally safe, that I'm going to end up finding that person sexually attractive too, I think.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. I mean, there are, we've spoken about this, but there are, there are certain things for me, like a certain kind of voice that I just can't, I just can't, I can't be attracted to men with a certain voice, it's just, it's just not going to work like, yeah, I prefer a tall, skinny guy with hair, but like, I, I can be very attracted to a short, bald guy, but like, can't… the voice thing is just…
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't know if there are any like, physical deal breakers for me exactly. I mean, maybe someone who had a really annoying voice, you know, what that would be challenging for me, but you know, I mean, yeah, I don't know. I am not comfortable and probably never will be comfortable talking to any person of any gender about what my, you know, what I find physically attractive in other people [laughs], but, you know, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm a normal, a normal man in that way as well.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Mm hmm. I think, I think your next partner is going to appreciate that [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I, as far as I know, my, my, none of my, partners have, have ever had any problem with the physical aspects of our relationships as far as I know. And now a lot of men say that and their partners do. So maybe I'm kidding myself.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I doubt it. Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah I don’t know. I guess, yeah, I mean, I would like to, to be with someone who, who doesn't have hang ups about, about sex, or at least like, their hangups about sex are no worse than mine.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes. Well put. I need that too.
All right. Well, did you get what you wanted out of this conversation?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: What I wanted out of the conversation was just to talk to you.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Oh, that’s nice [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You're like my best friend Rachel, of course, I like talking to you [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: All right. Well, I still am going to put out into the world that I'm looking for a boyfriend, and I hope I find one.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I hope so too.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I also might be looking for a second dog, but we can talk about that later. Aspects that I'm looking for in a second dog [laughs]. But for now, I'll just put the, the, the boyfriend wish out into the world.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay.
RACHEL ZUCKER: All right. Should we stop?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah.
[Music]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You've been listening to Hey, It’s Me with Rachel Zucker and Mike Sakasegawa.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hey, It's Me is a production of Rachel Zucker and Likewise Media.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Editing on this episode is by Mike Sakasagawa. Music is by Podington Bear, and transcription help is by Leigh Sugar.
[1:25:00]
RACHEL ZUCKER: You can find more information about the show, including contact information and transcripts, at heyitsmepodcast.com
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: If you'd like to hear more from us, you can find Rachel's other show, Commonplace, at Commonplace.today.
RACHEL ZUCKER: And you can find Mike's other show, Keep the Channel Open, at keepthechannelopen.com. Thanks for spending this time with us. Take care.