Transcript - Episode 16: Hours of Recorded Evidence
Hey, It’s Me
EPISODE # 16
Hosts: Mike Sakasegawa and Rachel Zucker
Transcript by: Leigh Sugar
Transcripts formatted after those from Disability Visibility Project
Please note: transcripts are transcribed directly from recordings of live conversations; as a result, quotes and statements may be approximate and there may be unintended memory errors.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hey, it's me. I just listened to your message describing your recent romantic adventures, and I had started listening to it a few days ago, and I stopped. It was a little, I wasn't in the right place, and then I listened to it just now and I am so happy for you. Like really, really, really, really, really, really, I loved listening to it, and I have a million questions, and I'll ask you those questions in a separate message, but I had the thought while I was listening to it, that our next episode should be basically like, can we talk about how to you know, be together at a moment in our lives where, boy, you and I are on opposite ends of the wheel of fortune. I've never been lonelier or less convinced that I will ever find someone than I am right now, and you're in a really different place and, and we, you are showing up for me and I really hope, and I think I am showing up for you, you know, in this moment, but like, what does that look like? What does that feel like? How do we talk about that? How do we spend time together and be there for each other without, in any way diminishing your joy or making you feel badly about it or any, anything like that? Anything like, all I want is to amplify and kind of revel in your happiness.
And I also want and need to, well maybe revel in my despair? I don't want to wallow, but I think that to minimize it is to make me feel insane. And I, I can't, I can't do that. And I, and you, you don't want me to do that. So I don't know. I don't know what that means for the next episode, other than like, what is it like for two people who care about each other to be in really, really opposite places? Yeah. Okay. Bye.
[Music]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: How are you doing?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, I feel like the title of this episode is, “Mike's Very Happy, Rachel's Very Sad.” Or, maybe we could just say, well, I don't know. Okay. I'm okay right this second [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: We'll see what the title is.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. In general, no.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: By the time anyone listens to this, there will be a title on it for sure.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Sighs]. I am very happy right now. It feels like a very strange time to be happy, considering everything that's going on in the world, and in everyone's personal lives, including, in my girlfriend's, my new girlfriend's personal life. It's very weird.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm like smiling like a, like a clown. Yeah [laughs.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I appreciate that you can be happy for me about this. I think yeah, I think that it's something that is, it's something that I've told my kids before that if you can find people in your life who can just be happy for you when things go right for you, that those are good people and you need to hang on to them.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So in your message, you had said something about talking about how we're going to navigate this new period in our friendship when things are going very differently for the two of us. And I think that underneath that question is an acknowledgment that even if you are happy for me, which I know you are, I believe you are, I can see it on your face, and I could hear it in the message that you sent me, and even if I am sensitive to what you're going through in your life, which I am, which you know, that there's the possibility that the fact that we are currently pretty far apart in how our lives are going, that is something that could put some strain on our friendship. And so how are we going to navigate that? Do I have that more or less right?
[5:28]
RACHEL ZUCKER: So right. Good précis.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So, where should we start?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, right this moment, I'm not nervous at all about how you and I are going to navigate this. In part, because you, have been sending me messages that are incredible and sustaining for so long, but in the past 48 hours, which have been particularly a lot for me, really a lot emotionally, you've sent me two messages: a shorter message that I pinned to the WhatsApp, which I listen to every time I brush my teeth, and it's a reminder that I'm not alone, that you're with me, that you care about me. And it's very, it's just really incredible and, and sustaining. And, you know, you often say like, I'm not sure what I can do from 3,000 miles away, but what you are doing, and I know you know this, but I want to say it out loud anyway, what you're doing is something very profound for me. Very important for me, very sustaining for me. And for a lot of reasons, some of which have to do with you and some of which really don't, apparently, you're the only man who is doing this for me [laughs]. And for me, it, for there's some, there's some part of me that needs comfort from a man, and I'm learning that. I'm learning a lot of things about that.
So, you know, Claudia and I often say, you know, that you are sort of single-handedly redeeming all the men.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Laughs] Jesus.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for the, for the hyperbole, but whatever, you're just gonna have to deal with it. But it's not hyperbole. It's just, and it's not just the men like you, you're really holding… you're keeping the flame of hope alive for me. And I bet for some other listeners of Hey, it's Me, for a male or masculine person to be really deeply supportive and caring. And then, your relationship is also, because of the way that you're talking to me about it, kindling this flame of hope for me for love, for relationships, for connection. My friend, Joan, is about to get a puppy and that is very exciting for me. And right now, what is like keeping me going is Joan's puppy and your relationship [laughs].
So, okay, then you left me a second message, it was about 20 minutes long. Was that yesterday?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah, I think so.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. And that message, I don't even know how to describe that message. I actually wrote down a few things from it, but just to summarize it, or to try to give you a sense of why I'm even talking about it, I mean, well, I'm going to do one of my famous stories within stories within stories. So I'm going to make you wait for me to describe the message [laughs] and I'll tell you something sort of shorter. This is what I always do to you. So -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Everybody, everybody who listens to this show by now likes the way that you tell stories, Rachel.
RACHEL ZUCKER: [Laughs] Okay. Okay.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: And so do I.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I'm so glad to hear it. Hey, listener. [Laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Four of them now. Remember?
RACHEL ZUCKER: [Laughs]. I know. I know. I know. I know. It's so good. Okay. All right. So Abram is going into the hospital soon. He's at the period of time where he is, I'm having to give him these injections, two injections every morning for five mornings in a row, maybe longer, and the medication in these injections, stimulates his bone marrow to produce stem cells and release them into his bloodstream, so that on Tuesday he can have a stem cell apheresis, it's called, where they collect, they filter the stem cells out of his blood, as it circulates through this machine and collect stem cells, which they will give back to him after he is in the hospital and has this high-intensity chemo.
[10:19]
So I've never given an injection before. And I've learned to do a lot of things since Abram got sick and, you know, I know how to de-access his port, which is, requires a lot of care and attention and you really need to make sure you don't, you know, introduce any kind of infection into his port, which could be very dangerous for him. But this is the first time that I've had to do injections, and the medication is very expensive, and it was overnighted to us and it required hours of conversation between me and the insurance companies and, you know, the hospital and all this stuff. And I have 10 shots. And I need to give 10 injections. And there's all these instructions that are like, if you shake the shot, you have to throw it out. If you touch the needle, you have to throw it out.
But meanwhile, like I can't mess up, like it's 10 shots, Also, I don't want to hurt him. And I thought they were going to give me like actual training at the hospital. And they basically just said like, yeah, make sure you do it between six and eight in the morning and it, you know, pinch his skin, stick it in. And I was like, okay… they didn't even give me the gauze, nothing. Okay. So the night before the first shot, which was a few nights ago. I, you know, I'm a very good student and I have a binder of information, you know, about, all this stuff. And so I looked at the instructions, I read them through several times, I, like, made little marks if I had any questions, ‘cause I wanted to be ready the next morning, you know, to do a good job and to feel confident and inspire confidence for Abram. And there were a few things I just couldn't understand. They didn't, they didn't quite totally make sense. And I knew that it would make more sense once I'd given the first shot and I could feel it. But without like knowing, you know, things didn't make sense.
So my friend, Joan, who's been my friend since the very beginning of high school, and has been like really unbelievably on the ground, in person, helpful over and over and over again throughout this, you know, this whole thing, her daughter is Abram’s age, 24, and she's a nurse. And it's, you know, I've, I've known her since before she was born and, you know, it's this just amazing thing that she's like a real live, you know, professional nurse now, living in New York City, and I called her and I said, can you help me understand these instructions, and we went through them, you know, one by one and she was very, you know, very funny and we talked about it where, you know, what part of the body, all this stuff.
Okay. I'm getting to the point of this story, which is, what she said to me was, I know you're going to do a really good job, this is doable, like, you know, there's not a lot of ways to fuck this up very badly. So, you know, don't don't worry about that. And she also said, I can't believe they're making you do this. It's unbelievable that this kind of responsibility, you know, is being asked of you as a non-clinical medical person, you know, and that combination of really, like, acknowledging how difficult the situation is, while at the same time, reassuring me, giving me like concrete help, and also just like belief and emotional support, is like the ideal combination for me.
And in this second message that you left me, you, you did that for me, but on a much more, a deeper and more global level than like the shots, you know, because really, what you said to me, was that I should not have to do this alone. I should not have to, you know, not just the shots but the whole thing. And -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I believe, among other things, like I called your ex-husband a giant baby man.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I know. I loved that because normally you're just like, I hope he stubs his toe, which is very nice. But like, yeah, I loved the passion that you really, you really said some things [laughs], you know, you really, you and I think I appreciated that, you know.
[15:00]
Yeah, you really were like, he's letting you down, and this is not okay, and I understand why you resented and you said you resented it too. And I appreciate that.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I do. I’m really angry with him.
RACHEL ZUCKER: [Laughs]. Yeah! Good! I have something to tell you about that which is that I told him how I feel yesterday Yeah, it was incredible. It was, it was, I've never, I won't ever do it again. I knew I had one shot… I don't want to use the word shot. I had one opportunity. And I talked about a lot in therapy and you know, and I did it and it's, it's a pretty incredible, it's a pretty incredible feeling.
Anyway, we can talk about that more in a minute, but you know, you also then said that even though I shouldn't have to do it alone, that I'm really doing an extraordinary job at this, and I know that, but it's still to hear it from you over and over again, as you have been telling it to me, because I know that it, you know, it feels so, so important to me, you know, and it's the combination of the two. Some people it's like, wow, you're doing a great job, you know, but of course you, I mean, parents do everything for their kids, you know, like if someone has one or the other, it's better than not having either, but it's the combination that is like really sustaining to me.
And then you talked about, you were so nice. You were like, I don't judge you for calling Michael. But, you know, what is it doing for you to like, keep doing this? And then you went into this long, I mean, really, it was like a platonic love letter. It was really like, any man who doesn't understand your sense of humor is not worth, you know, like your sense of humor is, is not hard to understand. My favorite line from the message that was, you said, we have, very, very even toned, “we have hours of recorded evidence of you making me laugh.” And I just started laughing so hard when I heard you were so serious [laughs]. And you were like, very, very, you were like, you were just like, very calmly like clinically assessing my sense of humor [laughs], it was so funny, it is really, you know, and you, you were, you basically said in a way that I could hear, and take in, because I trust you, and because I know, you know, me, you basically said to me that, like, these men are really not, they don't deserve me, and that you believe that I will find someone, you know, who will see me, you know, in the ways that you see me, and -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I'm not the only person who sees you this way, by the way.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay. Okay. Whatever. I think what I'm saying is, I don't quite know. I mean, I feel like we say this every single fucking time on this podcast, but like, I don't quite know how this happened. Although, I think that there are elements in our friendship that are in every working friendship, and people can work on them. And they can, you know, like, this was exactly what I needed to hear, and I think that if I could, if I could see myself as you see me, and I'm getting closer and closer to doing that, you know, with a lot of therapy, I could be the right size, you know, this is something my therapist has talked to me about for… since I've been in therapy with her for years of, you know, we got to get you to the right size, not bigger than you are, not smaller than you are. And I tend to go way back and forth, you know, in my own self-assessment, you know, I'm worthless, you know, and then I have a grandiosity as well, you know, and your description of me in that message feels right, feels really right.
And, and to like, to be that person, I think that is basically who I am, and I think it's who I want to be. And you said that I deserve to be with someone romantically, but also that in my friendships with people who don't want or need me to change. And that's another way of saying like, yeah, how you see me is who I am and who I want to be. And that's why I think we are not going to have trouble navigating this, this moment, even though I mean, it, it is profound, like, my, my level of distress is unreal.
[20:02]
And my level of loneliness is unbelievable. And you're in this relationship, and it's not perfect. It's not easy in every way, but like, I mean, this is like a thing of beauty for, for, for me to hear about and for you to be happening. And we are really about as opposite of the, like, I think I said the wheel of fortune or something, you know, as I can imagine, you know?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Mm hmm. I think that everybody needs to have people in their life who can just love them the way that they are, you know? And I think that what is so challenging is that that doesn't seem to happen a lot, because when we approach other people, we are doing so in a way where we need something from them, like we need them to be a certain way or to be a certain kind of person so that they can fill some kind of need for us. And it's really hard, I think in some ways it's even harder when someone gets almost all the way there, but still needs you to, to be what they want. Right?
So I know that it's not, it's not the kind of thing that happens every day, and it's not the kind of thing that we can necessarily expect from every relationship that we have. But I also think that, I mean, no one's ever going to be able to do that perfectly for any of us. I'm not going to be able to do that perfectly for you, or for my girlfriend, or for my kids, or anybody. But I think that, I think that there is a way in which many of the things that are the most necessary and precious and rare, are also the most commonplace and quotidian.
People do this kind of thing for each other every day, and I know for certain that there are lots of people who, in one way or another, are connected to you, whether or not you even know about their existence, who care very much about what you put into this world and what you put into this world, whether it's as a teacher or as a podcaster, as a writer, everybody knows this about you, that what you are putting into the world comes very deeply from yourself. And that is a thing that people value about you.
It's a thing that I've actually had conversations with other people, you know, other poets, for example, who say, oh, yeah, that is so much a part of Rachel's poetics. It makes sense. Like I remember I was talking to Gabbie Bates once about editing, you know, about editing a podcast, and how you and I had had conversations, or maybe it was even before we were having conversations about editing, but that you had, maybe you had talked on Commonplace about your sort of ethics a around editing, and how you kind of want to be able to leave everything in.
And I remember talking to, to Gabbie about that, and her saying, that makes a lot of sense, because that is so much about what her poetics is, right? So here's a person who you're not friends with Gabbie Bates, as far as I know, I know you know who she is and she knows who you are, but she's a person who is aware of you and who has made enough of a study of your work to know that that is a thing about you. Right? And she's not the only person who's done that. Lots of people have done that. I mean, your poetry gets taught in schools. You know.
RACHEL ZUCKER: There should be warnings for that.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Laughs]. I mean, I'm sure you know that this is true. You know, that there are people who teach poetry workshops who, who include your work in those workshops. And there's no way that somebody could read your poetry closely and not see some part of you, you know? So I know I'm not the only person in the world who does this and, you know, maybe I have more opportunity to do this on a, on a, a broader level because I know a lot more about you personally than just your poetry, but it's not just me that's doing this.
And, you know, you have a lot more listeners to Commonplace than I've ever had on Keep the Channel Open. And there's people who appreciate that about you as well. There are ways that you show up in Commonplace that make people laugh, that have made people in your audience laugh. So the idea that, that somehow you should have to settle for someone who doesn't understand your sense of humor, you know, the idea that you should have to compromise and be with somebody, let somebody in your life in an intimate way, who does not take the opportunity, you know, the gift of that closeness, to really try to learn who you are. I mean, that's just preposterous.
[25:07]
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, can I say something about that?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Sure.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I mean, I don't know why I feel like a little shy about this, but like, I just want to do a little psycho-babble, you know, for a moment on myself [laughs], and I'm, I'm, I'm undermining it, but it's a very big deal in my life. But you said like the idea that it's preposterous, and right now, having spoken to Michael and my ex-husband and my therapist and my psychiatrist [laughs], and having the experiences that I'm having, and having this conversation with you, and listening to your messages, I'm getting something about myself. Like, how did it, how did I come to be this way, that I have such low standards, in certain ways, for how I'm treated, especially by men, especially by romantic partners?
And I think, you know, after all this therapy and we've talked about a lot of this before, but things are sort of like getting clearer and clearer to me in a way, you know, like the fundamental traumas of my childhood were around neglect and fear and chaos and abandonment, not abuse, or not like active abuse, you know, in that way. And, you know, it's a very unfortunate, normal coping mechanism for children, if they are not getting what they need from their parents, it's too dangerous to blame the parents. So they blame themselves, right?
And they say, oh, you know, why is my mother screaming at me, or why did she, you know, why is she always losing me in the grocery store, or, there must be something wrong with me. I must be doing something wrong, because if it's, you know, if it's me that's doing something wrong, I have some control over it. And also it's too scary to, to be like, oh, my mother or father are irresponsible or scary or, you know, ineffectual even, you know, it's, it's too scary when you're that young.
And my marriage was very complicated. There were a lot of very good things. I will say that my ex-husband really got my sense of humor, and has a very good sense of humor. And we made each other laugh a lot, and he's very smart. And there were a lot of ways in which we were very connected to each other, but there was this, you know, kind of underlying dynamic from the very beginning between us, where I was like, Superwoman, and he was not. aAd over the course of the 25 years that we were married, you know over 30 years together, the death of my mother, my miscarriages my hysterectomy, my older childrens’ mental health crises, COVID, all kinds of things, he did not show up for me. And I think what happened to me is that I, I thought on some level, like, it's inconceivable to me that I wouldn't show up for my partner.
I kept thinking like, what is wrong with you? What is wrong with you? Why, are you, what, you know, I couldn't understand it, but somehow, I really thought, I must deserve this treatment. I'm not worthy of having someone show up for me. And so basically, my entire life, I either had these, you know, feelings as a child, and then I got married, you know, quite young. And though that dynamic was habituated in me, no matter how many books I published, no matter how many, you know, how good I, I did ,my sort of private shame, which wasn't even that private - I wrote about it. I, I talked about it. Was that I was married to someone who, who I think really admired me and, and really was kind of obsessed with me, but because he didn't, he was not able to show up for me or our kids over and over again, I had this feeling that I didn't deserve a man to do that for me.
And, you know, when I had my relationship with Michael, which was the first time I really experienced, um, the feeling of like loving someone unreservedly and, and feeling loved and seen in a way that I really had never experienced. And he broke up with me so suddenly. A lot of things were going wrong.
[30:00]
There were a lot of other things in the relationship that I wasn't seeing clearly. All of that is true, but I never had the chance to kind of really figure out why he couldn't be in the relationship with me. And so for over two years, I've really, I haven't been able to feel worthy of what you want for me and what I want for myself, you know, and I'm not saying, oh, I'm all cured and everything, but I can, I can, there's something about, you know, my therapist was like, you in the past week, she has said things to me so directly, like, she's like, you know, that man is tedious and boring. You know, that is not how she normally, you know, talks to me [laught]. Or like, we need to shut the gate on that man. You know, she's, and stop opening it. Stop opening the gate, Rachel. You don't need to do this. You know, when I see you undone in this very particular way, you know, you have a lot to deal with. You've, you, I mean, more than most, but you know what it is? It's your ex-husband [laughs].
I'm loving it. I'm loving the, you know, the blame. But, but in any case, you know, I, it's taken me a really long time. It's taken me a really long time and I can see it. I can feel it. I feel like I'm putting things in, in the place that they need to be. You know, I, telling Josh how I, how I, you know, how angry and enraged and disappointed I am in him really clearly in front of a witness. I think, you know, my therapist says, he's wearing a monster costume. You have to kill the monster and then you're just dealing with a pathetic man, you know. Fine. You could deal with that.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: That's excellent [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. And I, and I feel like, and, and you know, so I don't know. I feel like I'm getting there. But like this whole thing was like you said, it's preposterous. It is, it's impossible sometimes for people who know me well and love me, to understand how insecure I am in certain ways. How on the one hand, I know that I'm good at a lot of things, and I know that I work my ass off, you know, to be good at those things. And then there's this other part of me that is just, wow. Super… and I will say, neither Michael nor Josh is responsible for how deeply I get wounded by their behavior. They're responsible for their shitty behavior, but they're not responsible, you know, like, yeah, does that make sense?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah, it is important for us to be able to take responsibility for our own responses. And, to recognize that our own feelings are our own feelings and that, even though those feelings are influenced by the things that happen to us, they're not exactly caused by the things that happen to us. They're caused by our own internal workings. That's a revelation that I had with a therapist many years ago at this point, and it has, it was really life-changing.
You know, I think one of the reasons why you and I get along so well is because we have a lot in common, that in, in how shame operates in our lives, and, you know, that if I'm being honest with myself, that I also would have to admit that most of the people in my life who know me, with a few notable exceptions, but most of the people in my life who know me, think pretty well of me, and think of me as, you know, a person who is, who has a high ability in, in many aspects. And that is not how I feel about myself. Most of the time that is not how I feel about myself. So it's very easy for me to relate to, and see that in you, because that's how I am also. I think that, you know, something that I've been thinking about a lot, my girlfriend and I have been talking about it, among other things.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Every time you say my girlfriend, I'm so happy [laughs] but I make this incredibly stupid face. I love it. I also, I want to be like, you know, okay, sorry [laughs]. [In a sing-song manner] Mike has a girlfriend, Mike has a girlfriend [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You know, what's really funny to me about that is that you didn't do that, I've had two other girlfriends since I got divorced and you haven't done that about them
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, do we need to go into the reasons?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: No, obviously, like, obviously, this one is different.
[35:00]
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: In a lot of ways.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Which actually kind of gets me to something else that you were saying about Michael, right, because the way that you… we have noted before some of the similarities… the timeline was a little different, but some of the similarities between you and you and Michael's relationship and my relationship with my first girlfriend after the divorce, who I had really felt at that time was somebody who accepted me and loved me in ways that I had never experienced before and who I thought really saw me in ways that, that, that I hadn't experienced before, but who also had a lot of her own challenges and was not able to show up in the relationship in the way that I needed, and who broke up with me very abruptly. And that was really devastating for me. And it took me a while to be able to see that for what it was. To see that that relationship was kind of never the thing that I thought that it was, not because she's a bad person or anything like that, or because her intentions were bad at the beginning. But just because she had too much of her own shit going on, and that's kind of nobody's fault, but she just, she was never going to be able to be for me what I needed in a relationship. And I think the same is very true of Michael, and how he has and had too much of his own shit going on to be able to show up in the way that you need and deserve.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, can I ask you a question though? Do you think that if your first girlfriend hadn't had so much shit going on, that you would have actually been right for each other? Because until recently it's, I have, that's what I thought about me and Michael, but I don't think that's true.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I think that one of the things that this relationship that I'm in now is really showing me, is the degree to which my own self-doubt and shame has really limited my imagination,
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: For what is possible in a relationship.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yep.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: If that first girlfriend had not been dealing with everything that she was dealing with in her life, you know, and there's a lot, there's a lot of shit that she was and is dealing with. And I do still care about her, like you know, we're sort of nominally friends. I, I, I do care about her, and I care about what happens to her. If she had not had all those other things going on in her life or if, if she did have them, but she was more settled in them, let's say, I would have stayed in that relationship and I would have been, I would have thought I was, it was a good match. I would have thought that what we had was enough for me. And maybe I would have been able to go my whole life like that. I don't know, because I wouldn't have known any different. You know, the comparison I would have had would have been to my marriage, which, even that one I would have stayed in for the rest of my life, you know?
There's a lot about that first girlfriend, about that woman who, that was really good, that was really wonderful, and that I still respect. And that honestly, I still miss. But now what I can see is that there were also always a lot of ways in which that was not a good match for me, and there's no way that I could have known that until I got to where I am now.
It's my hope that, sort of vicariously, that me coming to this realization is something that can help you have that kind of realization too. It’s certainly allowed me to have that realization about you, you know, to say, I know what's possible now, right, and you deserve to have somebody who can keep up with you. And I don't think any of the men you've ever been with could keep up with you, you know. In some ways that is kind of a tall order because you're pretty impressive, you know?
RACHEL ZUCKER: I asked my therapist, I said, because she said almost exactly the same thing that you just said. And I said, okay, well, does that person exist in male form [laughs]? And she said, I think so. I believe, I believe so. Of course he's going to have his issues. Everybody does. But yes, I believe that person, that, that man, exists. I don't know.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I believe that too. I do. I don't know what it's gonna, what, when that, that guy is gonna find you, but I believe he's out there.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Mm hmm.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: And I think a lot of these things, it's the, it's, it's, it's the most, sort of cliche, and often and really kind of condescending thing to say to someone that these things find you when you least expect them to.
[40:05]
In a lot of ways, when people say things like that, most of the time what they're saying is, can you please stop being sad at me, you know? Can you please, can you please just like leave me alone with your feelings? I think is really what most people are saying when they, when they fall back on platitudes like that. It has also been my experience that all of the most amazing things that have happened to me in my life have kind of come out of nowhere, and I didn't really do anything to earn them, or to make them happen. And, you know, that they are, that they're just good things that happened to me. You know? This friendship, for example.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Mm hmm. I have a concrete question.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I know. Just prepare yourself [laughs]. It's like, it's not a metaphysical one. It's like an action item question that I've been wanting to ask you, but it's related to this.
So you and I met through social media and podcasting, and Gabrielle Bates is somebody that I know through social media. So one of the things that you, you asked, like how, how you can help me and, you know, stuff like that. So, so here's, here's a problem I have. Here's something I'm trying to figure out. So when Abram goes into the hospital, around February 12th, he will be in the hospital for four to six weeks and he'll be in isolation. Like real pretty serious isolation, and as his primary caregiver, who's not splitting this part with Abram's father, I will be wearing a mask. I'll be in somewhat in isolation as well in the sense that whenever I leave the hospital, I will be wearing a mask around all people. And I won't go to a restaurant. I won't go, you know, in a crowded place. I certainly won't leave New York City. I, there will be times when I assume I will sleep at the hospital. And, you know, I'm not going to have any touch or any, unmasked face-to-face contact with anyone, for probably two months.
I think I probably missed my chance to have sex with anyone before Abram goes into the hospital. It's just too risky now. And also, I don't even know who that would be. I thought it, I thought maybe Mark was gonna get on board, but, he hasn't called. So, okay. So, it's already been a long time. It's going to be a long time. So let's just forget about the sex part, and even forget about the touch part, and even forget about, you know, all these other things like, this is what it takes. This is what I'm doing.
But as you well know, I have a part of me that seems to have needed and maybe still does need, an audience, and a kind of public life and also so much of my closest community came from this like social media. I am not on any social media right now. I have no news intake whatsoever. The only news that I know about is when Moses or Judah tells me something, and they now tell me it as if I'm like, you know, need a lot of special help, like, you know, on the plane back from Anguilla, Moses said, Mom, we're landing in JFK soon. And since we left, and since we've returned, there is a new president.
Like, I mean, this is how my children speak to me now, which is great. So I don't want to know. It's not helpful to me. It's not good for me. I, there's nothing I can do. I do know there are, the fires in Los Angeles, like I sometimes sub stuff slips through, but like, so I don't know, I, I, there's a part of me that's like wondering if I should go on BlueSky, like maybe I should go on Twitter and tell everybody that X, whatever, that I'm really, really leaving X, because I still have a lot of followers there and just really say, like, I'm shutting down my account finally, and I'm going to BlueSky. And go to BlueSky.
I mean, I know I'm not going to go on Instagram. And part of me is like, no, maybe I need like a blog, like an old style blog. And then I was like, well, I do send these updates, but that's, that's different. It's like a closed audience. I don't know. So I feel like you might have a thought about this, or maybe I just need to be told.
[44:55]
I don't know. I'm very nervous about, I'm nervous about going on any kind of social media, especially right now, but I'm also concerned about this feeling I have that I'm disappearing into a black hole, and, you know, I don't think that's good for me. Also I'll say this, you know, Abram and my relationship is a very nonverbal one. I mean, we talk to each other, but that's not what he likes. You know, like Moses and I, it's just like, [makes yapping sounds] you know, can't, you know, it's a lot of, it's a lot of isolation for me that's coming up.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So the thing about social media is that it is, in my experience, both a necessary lifeline and point of connection and, and avenue to bring people into my life. It is also exceptionally toxic, even BlueSky, which is better than most, and is also a path into my life for stressors that, like, it is a way in which the world comes into my life, and the world is in, is an exceptionally stressful place right now. I'm not 100 percent sure that there is a way to be on social media and to do that in a completely healthy way that completely protects your peace. I'm not sure there's a way to do that.
I also know that there's no way that I cannot be engaged with social media. I don't know if that means it's the right thing for you, but social media is, it is the avenue through which this relationship found me. It is the avenue through which, in combination with Commonplace, I became friends with you.
RACHEL ZUCKER: The relationship you first were talking about was with your girlfriend.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yes.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes. Yes.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yes. This new relationship, my girlfriend noticed a social media post that I made, decided to start following me. After following me for a while, decided that she wanted to start flirting with me, started flirting with me, and I did not know that.
RACHEL ZUCKER: [Laughs]. I love her.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: And because I did not know that, I just sort of like, you know, I sort of put it off as like a, oh, you're being very nice, but you don't have to do that kind of thing [laughs]. And then, and then she decided to try again in a more obvious way, which is necessary for me [laughs]. And then we hit it off and things just continued to escalate from there.
I, it is very clear to me that if I were not on social media, that this relationship would not have been born. And I think that is true also for a number of really important friendships in my life. My friendship with you, my friendship with David, my connection to the creative communities that I'm connected to at all. Much of my own podcast, much of Keep the Channel Open, those people have found their way into my awareness through social media. It's a little less so now because now people actually, you know, I get publicists pitching me stuff. But honestly, most of the ones that I'm still really excited about are the ones who I find, you know, through some other connection.
And I have found that what social media does for me, is that it allows me to present myself to the world, because that is what I do. We've talked about needing an audience. I don't know why, but the kinds of things that I post on social media are the kinds of things that I think normal people, or at least normal people in the pre-social media era, would have just put in their journals, or maybe talked, told to a friend.
And it's not that I don't have friends. I do have friends. I have you, for example, and we do talk about a lot of things. We talk, we talk about a lot of things on this podcast and via our messaging. I have other friends too, who I, who I also met through, through social media, whether it was through TikTok or Twitter or whatever, you know, who now I am able to message through other means, whether it's Whatsapp or Telegram or texting or whatever and I can talk to them about stuff too. And yet, instead of writing things down in my journal or telling things to a friend, I find that I need to say these things in a place where they can be heard by the public. And I still don't fully understand why but I, I do know that there is some way in which I need to be able to be visible to the world, and me being visible to the world and just being who I am because I do really try very hard to be authentic, rather than crafting a social media persona.
[50:10]
I try to present every aspect of myself, whether that is, you know, right now I've been posting mostly things about, not exactly about politics but about how one shows up in the world through a time like this. I also make a lot of jokes, many of which people don't recognize as jokes.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hmm.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I also share things that I think are beautiful. I also talk to people. I do all of that. Those are all different aspects of me, and I try as much as possible for my social media presence to reflect who I am as a total being. I don't know if I, you know, am perfect at it, or I'm probably not perfect. Well, I'm definitely not perfect at it, but I think that that attracts a certain kind of person to me, and that is not how I became friends with you. I became friends with you because I started listening to your show. I don't remember how your show came into my awareness at first, but I started listening to Commonplace, and then I started following you on Twitter, and between the two of those, I decided, this seems like a person that I want to be friends with, and so I pursued a friendship with you. Which is really the inverse of what I'm talking about, right? But what I'm saying is, is that I think that this way that I try to be on social media, and the way that you used to be on social media, is something that has clearly the potential to bring these things into your life as well, because that's how we became friends.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So, I think that as a practical matter, I don't know if this particular time is the right time for you to rejoin social media. I know that, like, what you are going through right now requires a certain amount of compartmentalization away from the sort of onslaught. of, you know, the fire hose of social media and information. And I know that the kinds of people who you would be connected to on there, you know, we have mutual friends who are, you know, fantastic, who are fabulous, who we admire and appreciate, and who also spend a lot of time screaming about things on the internet in a way that can be very difficult to tolerate. I suspect that you know at least one of the people that I'm talking about right now [laughs].
And I'm glad that I'm connected to people like that. I'm, you know, but it can be very difficult to sit with those people's distress. For me, and I'm, I'm pretty good at tolerating distress, and I'm pretty good at compartmentalizing, and I don't have anything near the stress in my life that you do. And it's still hard for me to sit with that sometimes. So I don't know if it's the right call for you, but I also know that it's not the right call for you to be by yourself through that experience.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, if, if I were going to go back on which place, which platform, which, what would you even think for me? I mean, I loved Twitter. You know, I mean, it drove me crazy. It drove me nuts.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Blue Sky is the closest to old, old school Twitter.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Mmm hmm.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So that I think would be a good fit for you. I think that -
RACHEL ZUCKER: I mean, would I go on Facebook? I've never even been on, I mean, I, I, I've been on Facebook, but I, I don't, I don't have a Facebook [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't think that, I don't think that most of the other platforms would be a good fit for you.
RACHEL ZUCKER: You don't think I should film some TikToks in the hospital [laughs]?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I think you could. I think that TikTok is a very interesting thing. I think that, unfortunately, that TikTok has turned a corner in the past several weeks, where it does not feel like a safe place anymore, because they like, like many corporations are, very much cozying up to the Trump administration, that makes it feel very uncomfortable to be there. And I have not been engaging with TikTok very much.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Wow. Okay.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You know, TikTok shut down very briefly, for like a day or two. TikTok was completely shut down in the United States starting on the 18th or 19th, I think.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Oh. Of January
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah. So this was very recent.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hmm.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You know, it was just a couple of weeks ago. TikTok was, you know, the, the United States government made a, passed a law to essentially to ban specifically TikTok, and of course it's worded in a way where it would be able to ban anything, but it really only applies to TikTok right now.
[54:55]
And, that ban was signed into law by President Biden and went into effect, was supposed to go into effect on like, I think the 22nd, but it actually, and it was upheld by the Supreme Court, so TikTok shut down all of its United States operations on, I think the 18th or 19th of January, and everybody was real upset about it. And less than a week later, it reopened. And when we went back in, all of the United States users were met with a pop up that said, basically, thank you so much to President elect Trump for, or not even president elect. For President Trump for providing us the clarity to allow us to continue operating in the United States.
It feels real shitty now, and they are definitely… there's always been questions about what kinds of content they, their algorithm throttles, and what it lets through, what it… TikTok being how it is, you know, whether or not people see your content really depends on whether or not they allow your content to be seen even by the people who follow you.
So it does not feel good to be there right now. And that's very unfortunate.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I have a great idea for a second podcast we could do. It's called, “Mike Tells Rachel the News. And in this podcast, you either tell me true news stories or the plots of lesser known sci-fi [laughs], and you see what if I can tell which one is which. Because you're what you're saying right now, I'm like, I'm nodding like, uh huh. And also you're like, 18, 22, and I'm just like, I don't even know what the fuck you're talking about [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I don't have enough work in my life already, Rachel [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, okay, so maybe we could just do one episode like that [laughs]. That doesn't have to be a whole podcast. It's not like every new idea I have doesn't have to be its own podcast [laughs].
All right. So, okay. First of all, we've been talking a long time, but second of all, so, so we don't know the answer to the social media question. I mean, you you've you basically reiterated my question back to me. And we're like, yeah, I don't know. It's not good to be so isolated. But I don't know. This
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: This is the limitation of our friendship is that I never answer your questions [laughs. Rachel, I never give you advice or tell you what to do.
RACHEL ZUCKER: If you were me, would you go back on BlueSky? In my situation?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: If I were me ,and I were in your situation, I wouldn't have been off of BlueSky in the first place. I would have been there the whole time [laughs]. Because I can't not be on social media.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, I thought that about myself, but that wasn't true [laughs]. Okay. All right. So you're not answering the question, or you are answering the question, but I'm not, it's not helping me. I can't, I can't tell what's happening. And then, so the reason I took us on this side trip was because I remembered, you know, you asked the question at the beginning, you, you, at the beginning, you said, I have to stop doing this because it's going to be really annoying to you that I keep moving the mic back and forth for the mic. I'm sorry. I apologize in advance [laughs].
You said, how are we going to navigate this new period of time when, you know, we're in very different places emotionally, you know, and, and circumstantially in our lives. And I was like, well, we're not going to have trouble because you're so great and I'm so great too. So that's going to be fine [laughs]. And now I think what I'm saying is like, maybe, maybe it's a kind of greediness. Maybe I don't need to go on social media. Maybe, maybe the desire to go on social media is for more mics. But there's no more mics! There's you! And also, it's fine! I don't, I also don't even have time for more mics. I don't, yeah. I don't think, I think I answered my own question [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: There's not more me out there. There's only one of me. But, uh, there's gonna, there are people out there who are better than me at many things. And there are people out there who are equivalent, like the things that I do well, there are other people out there who also do them well. And it's true, you don't have a ton of extra bandwidth right now for more people [laughs], but somehow some there, there's going to be more people that need to enter your life, and it might not be in the next two months, but, but it does need to happen somehow.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
[59:58]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: And honestly, I think that being greedy, to a certain extent, as long as it's not hurting other people, is actually something that you should do. You should be greedy. I'm learning how to be greedy for maybe the first time in my whole life, or at least since I was a young child. And it's fucking great.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So, please do be greedy, you know?
RACHEL ZUCKER: I don't know how to like, it's like, I feel like I'm trying to like, get all my stuff together to go to the most no fun summer camp of all time forever of ever imagination, you know, like, even I have to order an extra large, a twin extra large pillow top cover because the caregiver bed in Abram’s room is famously uncomfortable, and there's like a fucking packing list for this shit, you know? And I think it's like, I think I'm having the same feeling of like, do I have what I need? Do I have what I need? Because I can't get it once I'm in, you know. And that is and isn't true. You know, I think.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Material things you won't, you may not be able to have a lot of second chances to bring in. And so packing, you know, double checking and triple checking your packing lists for material things, I think that that is wise. It's also the kind of thing that you are very good at.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: But having a recognition that there are ways in which some of the less tangible things may be things that you could have a realization and have some method of contacting the outside world, and bringing those things into your life, I think that that is something that would be good for you to recognize as a possibility.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Well, I had two things that happened, which I think are, are kind of like what we're talking about. One is that I was invited to this poetry festival in Germany in June. And at first I was like, oh, there's no way I'm going to be able to do that. And I was with Moses at the time and he was like, why not?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: And why not indeed?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. So I said, yes. So I am planning to be reading twice at this festival in Berlin, June 13th and 15th. In April I'm going to be the poet in residence at this boarding school for girls in Connecticut, and it's four days, and I think the whole school is reading my work and I am so fingers crossed that I'm going to be able to do this It's, it's getting, it's getting a little dicey because April is in some ways is very close, you know, but I'm hoping Abram will be home from the hospital and, you know, that it will be safe, you know, for somebody else to come and take care of him at the, for four days. I think those two things, at first I almost said no to them in part because it's so painful to be torn between the outside world and the world of the ill.
And I've had so much trouble, I've talked to you about this, like transitioning back and forth between those two worlds, and it's incredibly painful to be teaching right now. I should not, I should not be in this position that I cannot afford the lack of job security to take an unpaid leave because I need the health insurance. Like my teaching is not giving me the thing that I'm looking for, which is, you know, a professional, a sense that, that my non-caregiving life is still alive and, you know, has a future, but these two things maybe are. And so I, I, I was on the verge of saying no to Germany. I was on the verge of canceling the thing in Connecticut. But I've said, I've said yes to those. And -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: That's great.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. So I think it's, it's things like that. Matthew Rohrer, who's so sweet to me and, and such a wonderful friend, I was talking to him about something and I started crying and I said, like, you know, just, I feel like I'm just disappearing, you know, like, will you just remember that I exist, you know, when I go into this, into the hospital world, and, he said, of course, you know, he was so nice.
And then about a week later, somebody emailed me and she said, oh, I'm an editor at this publication and I was talking to Matt and Matt was like, you know, email Rachel and ask her if she wants to, you know, send you some work. And, you know, cause nobody solicits me for work anymore because I don't, just, for lots of reasons, which is totally fine.
[1:05:11]
But yeah, I think, I don't know. It's tricky because I can't really do anything else. And I can't even, I really don't even have the time to, I mean, I barely have the time to record this with you, you know, so, so it's not that I need more stuff. It's but I somehow, I have to figure out how to have enough connection to the outside world. It's too late to make some in-person friends. That ship has sailed. Too late for sex. Bye bye, sex. You know.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You’re gonna have sex again. Like, dry spells longer than two months have happened before.
RACHEL ZUCKER: That's called marriage [laughs].
[Mike laughs very hard].
Oh, it makes me so happy to make you laugh. It really does [laughs]. Yes, yes, dry spells have happened. Yes, I really, I look forward to a future that includes sex.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: It's going to happen for you.
RACHEL ZUCKER: All right.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: In fact, I would go so far as to say that it's, it's not just going to happen that you're gonna have sex again in the future. I mean, that, that is a guarantee, but you're gonna have good sex too. That's going to happen too. You've had a lot of disappointing sex over the past couple of years.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I really have.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You're going to have some good sex. It's going to happen. It's going to happen.
RACHEL ZUCKER: See? You're like a hope machine [laughs]. You're the key, you keep hope alive for the women. Or for me, doesn't have to be for all women. just for me [laughs]. That’s too big of a burden for you.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You know what I was, something I was gonna say just a bit ago and then we got sidetracked, this is something that that I've been thinking about a lot recently, that I have long had this idea that being strong and being brave, or all of these things, are things that you, that, that I need to find in myself, and I think that there is a truth to that, but it is much easier to find your own strength, or your own courage, or your own hope, or your own optimism, your own self love, when you have other people around you who care about you [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. Yep.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So, you know, you've got people in your corner.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Thanks. It's good. And I, I do know that. And I have, I have hours of recorded evidence [laughs] of you telling me that you're in my corner. Yes.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I am in your corner, Rachel. Yeah.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. All right. Should we stop? I feel so sad, but it's okay. It's okay. Maybe we'll get in one more before… probably not, but maybe, we'll see who knows?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You know, even if we have to do a shitty recording where you're just talking through your phone, we'll figure it out.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: We'll figure it out.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I am really, really happy for you. And I really, I'm really happy for me that you are having this wonderful experience. It's, it is really giving me not just hope, but some real joy and pleasure. Vicarious? Yes. Of course, moments of jealousy? Duh [laughs]. You know? Well, I'm not crazy. What? But no, I, I wouldn't, I, more, just be more and more happy. You know, I know there's going to be, one day you'll have a fight. You know? That's gonna be, it's gonna be very, very interesting. It
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: It is gonna be interesting.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. It's okay.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You know she's gonna listen to this?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah, well, I hope so. She's a good girlfriend. She should [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: She's been, she's been listening.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hi, girlfriend [laughs].
[1:10:00]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: All right.
RACHEL ZUCKER: All right. The end [laughs].
[Music]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You've been listening to Hey, It’s Me, with Rachel Zucker and Mike Sakasegawa.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hey, It's Me, is a production of Rachel Zucker and Likewise Media.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Editing on this episode is by Mike Sakasegawa. Music is by Podington Bear, and transcription help is by Leigh Sugar.
RACHEL ZUCKER: You can find more information about the show, including contact information and transcripts, at heyitsmepodcast.com
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: If you'd like to hear more from us, you can find Rachel's other show, Commonplace, at Commonplace.today.
RACHEL ZUCKER: And you can find Mike's other show, Keep the Channel Open, at keepthechannelopen.com. Thanks for spending this time with us.
MIKE AND RACHEL: Take care.