Transcript - Episode 6: Yeah, Grandpa, Get It!
Hey, It’s Me
EPISODE # 6
Hosts: Mike Sakasegawa and Rachel Zucker
Transcript by: Leigh Sugar
Transcripts formatted after those from Disability Visibility Project
Please note: transcripts are transcribed directly from recordings of live conversations; as a result, quotes and statements may be approximate and there may be unintended memory errors.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA Hey, it's me. So there's this album that I've been listening to off and on for the past, I don't know, maybe month, that a lot of my friends, and particularly my younger queer friends, are really into. And it's also really huge on TikTok. It's by an artist called Chappell Roan, I think it came out last year. And I cannot make up my mind what I think about this album. And so I thought I might talk about it with you. I'm going to send you a link to listen to the album if you want to.
The other thing is the other day, I saw this Tik Tok. There's a little trend going around on TikTok of somebody put a voice filter on one of the songs to have like a cartoon character singing the song. And so people have been going nuts with that. And there's this one video, it's actually a couple different videos, but one in particular stood out to me of this straight guy. Like, getting really into the song, but also acknowledging that it's, like, not really for him. Which I thought was kind of interesting and kind of plays into it.
So yeah, I thought maybe we could talk about that. And we'll see if it goes anywhere interesting. All right.
[Music]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Are you ready?
RACHEL ZUCKER: I am so not ready.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah, me neither.
RACHEL ZUCKER: But, but we're, but I'm glad to see you!
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I'm glad to see you as well.
RACHEL ZUCKER: So I guess that's ready.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Laughs]. So I was thinking to myself, like, there's an aspect to this podcast that is a little bit cringey. And what if I kind of lean into that a little bit? And I was thinking, what would be cringier than having two middle aged people talk about youth culture? So I thought maybe that would be a good thing. And then I was thinking, I don’t think that this is actually youth culture [laughs]. I don't know if young, actual, like, teens are listening to Chappell Roan or not. And the other thing too, is that, already by now and definitely by the time this comes out, I think probably the moment may have passed on this particular album [laughs].
So, talking about pop culture stuff that isn't, like, really historical is, is pretty interesting. I'm a little unsettled about, about how timely or not this is going to be, but, but since we're not really talking about the pop culture, we're really just talking about you and me, it's probably fine [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: Well, I really don't want to divert our conversation from whichever direction you want to start it, but I do want to say one thing that you could, we could talk about, or we could not, but late breaking news, I changed my mind about this album, and I have one idea, or thought about it, but that's all, that's all I have about it.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So just for a little background for anyone who might theoretically be listening to this, I had sent you the message and along with the message, I sent you a link to listen to the album and then some time passed because we were both too busy to record, but you had actually sent me a message saying that you really did not like this album.
So that's what you're talking about when you say you've changed your mind?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: And I thought it was really interesting too, because you sent me an album back, or like told me what the album was, this album by The Bengsons, which was one that had been very meaningful to you, and that actually I thought was really interesting insofar as the comparison between the two albums and why, why one might hit and another one wouldn't.
So, let me just start by asking you, did you have any awareness of Chappell Roan or this album or anything before?
RACHEL ZUCKER: No. Never.
[4:54]
Well, that's not true. When I re-listened to it yesterday and this morning, I was like, oh, I know this song, but I wasn't sure if I just knew it from the last time that I listened to it. So I, I don't, I don't know [laughs].
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: So this album came out in September of last year, September ‘23. And it didn't make that big of a splash when it first came out, but then in April of this year, and I apologize for sending it to you so late, the single that I sent you this morning, which is called “Good Luck, Babe,” she released that in April of this year, and that did make a big splash along with the fact that I think she's been touring with Olivia Rodrigo or somebody who's already big.
I first became aware of this album probably in May of this year. And then the video that I sent you from TikTok is from late June. And just to sort of put a pin in dating this particular conversation, it's now mid July. So already by the time people hear this, this moment will have been passed. It's interesting because it's basically, I had never heard of Chappell Roan before, ever. And then all of a sudden, it just seemed like everybody on TikTok, on other social media, and a lot of my friends, especially like I mentioned in the message, my younger queer friends, were super duper into Chappell Roan and, so, you know, I figured I should probably give this album a shot.
And it's still not really hitting strongly for me. And I thought that that was kind of interesting. So I'm, that's sort of my background here. And I wanted to know, well, first of all, what is the thought that you had? And if that's related, like, is that related to why you've changed your mind about the album?
RACHEL ZUCKER: So when I first listened to it, I don't know how much of this was mood or how much of it was this other thing that I want to talk about, which is time. You keep saying the moment has passed, and I want to come back to that for a second.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I just mean in terms of like, like the pop culture news cycle kind of thing, the attention cycle.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah, totally. Totally. And I think that's really interesting. So I first listened to it and my immediate reaction was, ugh, I don't, why, Mike? Why are you making me listen to this music? It's like, it sounded like a bad musical [laughs]. And I'm like, not usually a fan of musicals. And then like, it was just, I just was like, I don't, I gotta, how am I going to live? Like it, it was physically uncomfortable for me. And I was very irritated with you and I was very irritated with Chappell Roan and I was very irritated with all of the Chappell Roan’s fans. And I was very irritated with all of pop culture [laughs]. And, and I was just like, fine, I guess we're going to have a podcast in which I just come up, come off like an old lady who's just irritated by everything fun and everything new and everything good. And I was like, great, great, Mike. Thanks a lot.
Okay. So then without going too deeply into it, you and I, I'll speak for myself, I've had some rough, it's been a rough few weeks.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah. For both of us.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah. And so we delayed recording, Like you said, and then we decided to record today. And I was like, Oh, I guess I have to go back and listen to that bad album again [laughs]. And when I turned it on, I was like, I love this album. And I, I was like, well, what is different? And I think it's, for me, mood might be part of it, but I think the biggest thing is that it sounded familiar, because I'd listened to it once before. And I think for me, like, there's a lot of pop music that I actually really like and that I get into. And then I'll like, listen to it over and over and over again. And, you know, especially at different stages, like of the pandemic or, you know, I had my divorce songs that I would like, listen to and sing at top volume in the car, or, you know, going back to Pat Benatar, or, you know, really pop music, Beyoncé. I went through a big Beyoncé fan phase.
And when I go back to the music that for whatever reason made it through that initial filter that I have, which I might have for any new music, like any, once I hear it for the second time, I think that my enjoyment of pop music has to do with familiarity. And with a feeling, it's like, I was going to use the word nostalgia, but it's not nostalgia. Cause it's like instant nostalgia. Like all I only need to hear it twice sometimes to, to, to be like, Oh, I love, Oh, I love that song.
[10:20]
Like when it comes on, like, it's almost like eighties music. I mean, my God, I love eighties music if I'm in the right mood. And that's because it brings me back to this other time in my life, you know, when I was on the bar mitzvah circuit, you know, but it's so interesting to me that this time I had that feeling of like, being brought back into the past into something familiar and, and I could feel myself like getting all dancey and like wanting to sing along and like recognizing the lyrics and like being into the message and like, you know, the, the girl power of it and like, it's only been a few weeks since I heard it for the first time and didn't like it.
And I was like, wow, I wonder if that's like, I get what you're saying about, you know, the moment has passed and these things have a cycle and they have a very quick cycle of what's popular and now it's not popular and something else is popular. But for me, what makes something, I think, enjoyable or what draws me to it, is the sense that I've heard it before. So in some ways I'm like, that moment has passed is almost like the opposite for me, if that makes any sense?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Yeah, I think that familiarity is a real powerful thing when it comes to particularly music, you know, generally I have to listen to an album, you know, three, four, five times before I kind of make up my mind about it, before I decide whether or not it's sticking, because almost no music hits me right off the bat. And oftentimes when music does really hit the first time I hear a song, it doesn't last. It's not a song or an album that I can keep coming back to over time. There are a few exceptions here and there, including recently, but by and large, music tends to either, connect quickly and then fizzle out, or it's a slow burn for me. So, you know, I think that there is something to that.
It's interesting to make the comparison to eighties music. I think a lot of pop music, I think one of the things that really characterizes, a lot of pop culture, but particularly music over the past 10, 15 years, is that it is very self consciously borrowing from or influenced by older things, rather than trying to necessarily be innovative. Which I don't mean as a bad thing, I just, it is a thing, like, 80s synth pop is definitely a huge influence on this album and on a lot of pop music for the past 10 years or so, 10, 15 years.
What I think is really sort of interesting and, you know, saying, I saw your initial reaction like, you don't like this music, was so interesting, and really apropos of what I wanted to talk about, because the thing that is sort of a push and pull for me about this album is that it's really clear that this album is not for me, right? Not to say that like someone like me couldn't appreciate it, and I do appreciate it for what it is, but that the audience that the artist was sort of aiming at wasn't me, which is fine, right? Like, and, and in a lot of ways, not for me, like I am older, and I think that this is an album that is not necessarily aimed at young people in the like teenagers, but I think that it is sort of more of like a 20s, maybe early 30s kind of album.
It's aimed more at women than men. It's definitely aimed way more at queer people than straight people. Over the past several months, Chappell Roan has become this gigantic queer icon. And I think deservedly so. I think that what the sort of, like if you can say that an album has a sort of rhetorical goal, I think that there is something about queer liberation and queer love and freedom and stuff like that that's happening in this album that I think is really interesting and inspiring and I can see why it connects with a lot of people.
But I think that there's something interesting about being able to or being unable to connect with a piece of art that isn't supposed to be for you, that I find myself thinking about kind of all the time lately, not just with music, but like with all kinds of art.
[14:57]
And I think that, not necessarily to make this like, turn this towards the global again, but just like, I mean, I think in general, there's a lot of, there are a lot of ways in which minority or marginalized art and artists have a lot more visibility recently than previously. And that has inspired a lot of backlash among people who can't deal with that, but it also provides a lot of opportunity for people who are not part of those communities to connect with that art, which I find interesting, and it's something, like just for me personally, I find kind of, an interesting and fulfilling but also fraught experience. Do you know what I mean?
RACHEL ZUCKER: I do and I'm really interested in this. So one thought I have is that do you think it's the goal of popular music to basically appeal to everyone? And if so, how does that happen, because I don't know that I feel the same about all kinds of art. Like popular music, I feel like, I want to respond to what you're saying about how to connect with a piece of art that isn't for you. That's something I think about a lot, but before I do, I feel like there's something about popular music that, that it's by its very nature, it's trying to, even if it comes from a particular subjectivity, as it always does, that what you want is an arena full of people all singing along, singing the lyrics to a song that like, most of them shouldn't really be singing.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, I think that historically, for sure, pop music is something that has been about mass appeal. And I think that this goes back at least all the way through the rock and roll era, but probably earlier than that, even. I mean, I think pop music as we understand it today is sort of a 20th century innovation. And I think that for people like you and me, having had our sort of formative adolescent experiences with music in the 80s and 90s, that that is sort of the framework that we would have with it. Like the big difference between pop music and sort of like more, I don't know, art house or indie or, or alternative music, being, you know, how mainstream it was intended to be.
I think that one of the things that is happened more recently is that there has become a lot more specificity, not to say that there wasn’t, I mean, like everybody talks about like Bruce Springsteen, you know, and like, as rock goes in the eighties, Bruce Springsteen was like, about as mainstream as you could get, and how all of his music is like really specifically about Asbury Park, New Jersey, right? And yet it is still very universal.
So like, specificity doesn't necessarily mean exclusivity, but I think that what I have noticed, and I think that what a lot of the sort of backlash to marginalized pop culture has been or marginalized representation in pop culture has been that a lot of people, however, it might be intended take it as more exclusive. And I think that there is at least in part, from the people making this kind of art, whether it might be television or movies or literature or music, that there is less concern with driving people out who don't like with losing an audience, there's, there's like more focus on, I'm going to make the kind of work that I want to make for myself and my people. And if other people can come along, that's great. But if they don't, I don't really care. And I do feel like that, that it, that sort of ethos is something that is present in this album as well. But I don't know, maybe, maybe you think differently.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I mean, you haven't used the word appropriation yet, but I feel like that's like part of what we're talking around. Not all of it, but I mean, the example of Bruce Springsteen is so interesting because on some level, at a certain point, Bruce, as I know him, was singing about stuff that had nothing to do with him anymore. Because if he was really going to just sing about his life, it would just be about how he's a celebrity and like fabulously wealthy. And, you know, there is a style of hip hop and rap and other kinds of music where that is kind of like at the core of like what the narrative of the songs are about.
[20:02]
Like, I'm the best, I'm the richest, I'm the greatest, you know, I'm the best rhymer. But for the most part, like Bob Dylan, like, you know, at a certain point, these artists were not singing about their lives, because they had become celebrities, and, you know, or famous musicians. So I think that's an interesting piece of this too, right? Like we're worried or we're thoughtful or thinking about whether we should be identifying, you know, with the musician or with the song or the lyrics or the experiences that these, that the music is discussing if we're, you know, straight and, you know, if it's for us, right?
But it's not even, in some ways, for the artist, on some level. And like, there's a certain level of performance and performativity. And that like, I feel like I, in the past few months, I have felt myself, and I think this has to do in part, sorry to bring him into this with Trump and the resurgence of, or the, whatever, the catastrophe of what is happening, my feelings about social justice and appropriation and some of the ways in which I have tried to be a good person have been shifting recently.
And, and I know that might sound like a huge leap, but it has to do exactly with things like this. It has to do with rethinking what's for me and what's not for me and the ways in which I've like been kind of maybe too careful, or too judgmental or too critical. Like if we can talk about the TikTok video that you sent me of the straight guy, you know, describe that, but basically what I'm saying is I think in the past I might have felt a little bit like, Ooh, that's not a great look. And right now today, I'm just like, Oh fucking hell. Like, I'm so glad that this song made you feel enough to make a TikTok video of it. Like I'm just, I'm so, I just, I don't know, I just feel like It's like recycling.
It's like it's like yeah, I’m like a very adamant, careful recycler. And every once in a while, you know, one of my kids will be like, you know, it all gets just thrown in the trash. And all this recycling is just there to make you feel better about your carbon footprint. But actually, this particular action is a distraction from the fact that, you know, the world is on fire .
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Laughs]. Yeah. Okay. I'll describe the video. So the video, like, as I mentioned in the message, so there's a song from the album, which is called, um, “Pink Pony Club” -
RACHEL ZUCKER: My new favorite song, by the way.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: [Laughs]. And it, and it's, it's kind of, you know, I believe Chappell Roan identifies as a lesbian, but the way that I, I read this song is just sort of like this… pansexual anthem for freedom and, just living, like a lifestyle that might be considered kind of hedonistic from the outside. But there's something very powerful about, you know, someone being from an oppressed class of people who are under increased threat choosing to have a hedonistic moment that is, I think, very liberating and powerful.
This song, so it has some kind of a filter thrown on it so that it sounds like a cartoon character, like a male-presenting cartoon character. And the video is this, you know, he looks like he's in his 30s, bearded, White man, in his bathroom. The caption over top is:
“Her: I'm on my way home. You better not be embracing your sapphic roots when I get there.
Me: a happily married, straight man”
And then him just like rocking out, basically just emoting. while he's like lip syncing and dancing to the camera alone in his bathroom.
And there was actually another video, I didn't send it to you, but it just came to mind where I saw some, it was a video, there was actually three or four videos, I think three or four different people saw this guy, but it was at a Chappell Roan concert in the last few weeks. And there was somebody zooming in on some other part of the audience, and there was this guy who looked like he was like 70, or maybe even older, singing along to “Pink Pony Club,” and like, you know, with his hands in the air, and he's wearing like a pink polo shirt and jeans. But he's like an old man, like, I mean, he might have been 80, I don't know. And, the videos that I, I think I saw three separate videos from three different angles of different people who all saw the same guy at this same concert and were like, you know, wanted to point him out to the rest of the internet, but they're also like doing it in a way that's like, yeah, grandpa, get it, you know, like, look at this dude living his best life. And, you know, maybe he's gay. Who knows? I don't know. He looks like somebody's, you know, grandpa, but, or great grandpa at this point, but he was having a good time, and neither the audience in person nor the people filming these videos were making fun of him. They were, they were, I mean, it was funny, but they were also welcoming him in.
Both of these things, I think that the first video does sort of speak to having some kind of awareness that there might be something transgressive about appropriating a culture that isn't your own, right? But I think the second video sort of also speaks to this point that there is some kind of a fuzziness, a gray area between appreciation and participation versus appropriation. And I think like being able to legitimately enjoy something while also not trying to take it and claim it for your own can be a really like appropriate act of solidarity. You know?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes. Yes. Yes1 I, I just wrote down “participation as a form of love and respect.” And I think, so we can't play the music because we'll get sued, but here are the ends of, here's the, just the lyrics:
“God, what have you done? You're a pink pony girl and you dance at the club. Oh mama, I'm just having fun on the stage in my heels. It's where I belong. Down at the Pink Pony club. I'm going to keep on dancing at the Pink Pony Club. I'm going to keep on dancing down in West Hollywood. I'm going to keep on dancing at the Pink Pony Club, Pink Pony Club. I'm going to keep on dancing. I'm going to keep on dancing.”
And in a way, the song itself could be seen as in conversation with these concerns that we're discussing. The first stanza is, “I know you wanted me to stay, but I can't ignore the crazy visions of me in LA. And I heard that there's a special place where boys and girls can all be queens every single day.”
So on the one hand, it's like, Hey, straight people don't crash my special place that queer boys and girls can all be queens And we don't have to deal with your straight person bullshit. Let us have our own place. Right?
But then there's this other thing. It's like, you know, I'm just going to keep dancing. I'm going to keep on dancing. I'm going to keep on dancing at the Pink Pony Club. And I don't know, Did you ever listen to Dan Savage? Was he ever an important person to you?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I didn't really follow him. I have, I had read, you know, off and on, like, you know, in a one off kind of way, like when one of his columns would go around, and I would see clips of him sometimes, but it wasn't something… I was certainly aware of him.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I was listening to Dan Savage like pretty diligently for a while and the main message that I got from him, but that I needed and wanted to hear over and over again with specific details was straight people are not as good as gay people at having sex. This is like way oversimplified, in part because gay people have had to communicate much more specifically than straight people, and good communication, and figuring out what you want and what you like and what you don't want and what you don't like and being able to communicate that to your partner, is a fundamental part of having good sex.
And I remember thinking about that a lot and thinking about, You know, that doesn't in any way, contradict or, or solve the difficulties of being queer or gay and, you know, the dangers of it and the marginalization of it. But there's also, I think, been a move With Dan Savage with this book that I mentioned to you, that I found fascinating, “The Tragedy of Heterosexuality” by Jane Ward, where she basically says that for many women, for many cis women, that sexual orientation is much more of a choice than, that's been previously kind of thought to be true.
[30:05]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: That's something that is like really explicitly something that Chappell Roan is talking about, especially in that single that I sent you. RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes, absolutely. And that's also made me think of this, you know, and one of the things that Jane Ward says is that, you know, in polls and studies and whatever, that straight women are the most unhappy of like any demographic of people, and that they're kind of like, what's so great about heterosexuality? Nothing. You know, it sucks. And that, that sexuality, sexual orientation, sexual preferences, are much more plastic, flexible than, you know, for some people it's, it's pretty hardwired, but for a lot of people, there's, there's much more flexibility and there's much more, you know, of a possibility of saying like, Hey, I would like to be part of a queer community. They're having a, there's, you know, I'm not trying to say like, it's so easy and great to be queer.
I am saying, it's not that fucking great to be straight, and there are problems and, and advantages for sure. And disadvantages for sure. But that the idea that you can make a choice to participate in ways that I think that I was kind of taught weren't really a choice… And I'm just rethinking, I feel like, that I was told and I internalized, that the way to care for someone from a different demographic from me was to make sure that I didn't take what was theirs because, you know, that's what White people are always doing and, and not, including appropriating their culture, you know, their art, you know, all of this stuff.
And I think that's important. I don't think we should just go around taking things that aren't ours. That's stealing and that's not cool. But I do think that there's a kind of flip side to that, which is that I think maybe I internalized it as a respectful distance, that is actually very unloving and fearful and can be dismissive, can be like racist. Like, you know, you in a, in another message, one time, we were talking about something else, but you, oh, we were talking about the Hanif Abdurraqib episode. And you said in a message to me, like, well, I don't know how much you listen to Tribe Called Quest. And I actually do listen to a lot of Tribe Called Quest because of my son, my youngest son, who's in, you know, just loves Tribe Called Quest.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I'm honestly surprised about that too considering how young he is.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yeah, so I don't, my sons don't listen to popular music. My oldest and my youngest -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I guess I guess I did know that your youngest is pretty into jazz, So that,there's a connection there.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes. And so he's like, you know, jazz, you know, traditional stand, all kinds of jazz, especially John Coltrane, especially Alice Coltrane, and then hip hop, you know, almost all kinds of hip hop and also Afro-beat and Etheo-beat. And so, you know, like he'll go through a phase where like, He's listening to Fela Kuti all the time. And so I started listening to Fela Kuti all the time, and I still listen to Fela Kuti all the time, even though my son listens to a lot of other things as well.
My oldest son listens to, you know, turned me on to John Prine, you know, and I listened to a lot of John Prine and, and Moses, my oldest also listens to a lot of country. Which is interesting. And there's a whole queer country genre, which I did, you know, I just -
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I was actually gonna go towards that.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Great. So I, the, the one thing I was going to say is, I don't say the N word when I'm singing, you know, hip hop, but I do sing along and I enjoy the fuck out of it. And you know, now that I listened with my son and I've heard again, I have this familiarity because usually what happens is he's like, I just want to play you this one thing.
I mean, I, the whole, diss track thing with Kendrick Lamar and, what's his name?
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Drake.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Drake. I mean. You know, my son was like, just one more, just one more. I'm like, I don't care about this fight between Kendrick Lamar and Drake. I don't care. But then it was like, he just kept playing it to me. So now I know these songs. And so now they're familiar to me. And now I like them because they're familiar to me.
In any case, I'm still cautious in certain ways about my participation or about my appreciation and love for this music, but I'm, I'm rethinking my hesitation and my cautiousness and I'm, feeling like, just actually just being a fan, and just like really going for fandom, and just admitting how much I fucking love the music that I love, and how much I appreciate it, how much I get out of it, like, it's okay. It's okay. It's a form of love.
[35:31]
It's, it might also be appropriative, but I don't know, I'm not sure.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, you know, I think another thing here is that you and I are of an age where when we were younger, when we were young people, when we were adolescents, I think that pop culture in general was a lot more segregated than it is now. When I was in high school, so I was in high school from ‘93 to ‘97, which a lot of people now consider to be one of the sort of hip hop golden ages. I went to high school in Carmel, California, which is a small, affluent, extremely White town. There were two Black kids in my entire school. There were kids that listened to hip hop when I was in high school and they were all White kids who were from affluent families. Most of them lived, most of them did not live in the parts of the school district where the economic diversity was, like, there were kids like, out in where I lived that like all their parents were ranch hands, you know, and they were very working class. But the kids who lived in town for the most part, were like the rich kids.
And it was mostly those kids who were listening to hip hop while at the same time being extremely, like, like the part of our region where the actual working class people lived and where the Black people lived, like, of course they would never go hang out in those areas. Right? But they would be Listening to hip hop, wearing like, you know, Chicago Bulls parkas to school and, and taking on the hip hop fashion.
And there was something about me at that time, I was like, who are you trying to fool? You're not Black. Why are you doing all of that? Right? The only reason I know about tribe called quest or like Wu Tang or any of the like nineties hip hop that I know about is because when I was in college, one of the first people I made friends with was a guy, his name's also Mike, who is from Brooklyn, and he, that's just, was just part of his deal, like he grew up around all of this East Coast hip hop stuff. And I remember just, it took me a really long time to get my head around the fact that here's this guy, he's like Irish Italian descent, thick Brooklyn accent, but he's like definitely a White guy, and not like a, not like a poor white guy either. Not really a working class White guy. Like, we all went to like, an expensive private college, you know? And he wasn't there on a scholarship. Like, why, like, I, I used to think to myself, you know you're White, right? Like, this is, this is weird.
I don't think that separation exists now. I don't think that it's something that young people now think like, there's music that's just for Black people or music that's just for women or, you know, I mean, that may be more than others, but like, by and large, I don't think the way people listen to music is nearly as segregated. Like the idea that you would just not listen to an entire genre of music because of your race, I think is something that teenagers now would find a strange idea, and probably they would find that to be, and in a lot of ways I think it I agree, it is a much more racist idea than saying it's appropriative to listen to this music.
I do think that there's a little bit of a line there, like I think that one of the big differences between my friend Mike and these kids that I went to high school with is that like, the way Mike dressed was just like any other like kid from Brooklyn, you know, any other White kid from Brooklyn, he didn't like flash gang signs that were part of something that he wasn't a part of. He didn't like, you know, dress like he was part of like, like he was a rapper. He just dressed like himself and he listens to that music. Whereas these kids that I went to high school with in this like very white bread, rich kids, you know, public school, but like rich kid neighborhood. Like, you know, that's like, where are you getting this from? Why, why are you putting on this whole persona?
And then they would put on this like blaccent when they talked, which is like, nobody, you know, talks like that. You're doing this on purpose, you know, that's, I think, really different. Right? And that does feel appropriative to me, but I think that there's a big difference there where it's like, my friend, Mikey, he's like, he's listening to this music because he likes the music.
[00:40:00]
These other kids are trying to take on this identity in order to accrue some kind of coolness factor to themselves, you know?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay. I also feel hesitant and cringe about what you're describing, but I want to rethink even that… I want to rethink even those kids. It's gross. It's uncomfortable, you know, when it's certainly, when like white teenagers are doing a blaccent, you know, it's really, it's really, and I'm very grateful that none of my children remotely, you know, went down that path. On the other hand, isn't that what teenagers do? Like, right?
Like, like, and, and isn't that part of like, like, I don't know what, like, so, so they, so they should be goth? Like White goth instead? Like it's super cringe. It's super problematic. It's super, there's a long history of, you know, White exploitation of Black music and Black culture. I'm not denying any of that. I'm also, but I'm just, I'm just trying to turn this thing around in my mind and think about, like, this kind of like, identification with something that's not your family of origin, that's not the like, maybe the culture that you were born into, or, you know, this strikes me now, as 52 year old, aas kind of like inherent in the separation process for some teenagers. And maybe if I can think about that with like a little more compassion and humor, even though, oh, my God, like, again, I don't know what I would have done if one of my kids were doing that. I don't know. I'm just wondering.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, I certainly agree that, like, adolescence is a time when your identity is very fluid and you are, like, very consciously putting different, putting different jackets on, right? You know, when I was in, in high school, I wasn't doing that, but, you know, like, I was wearing flannels like I was from Seattle, just like everybody else was, you know, like, and I'm not from Seattle and that's not what my, in, in a lot of ways, that wasn't what my culture was, right?
Like, I think one of the big differences is that, like these kids, it would be one thing if they had any like appreciation of actual Black people, you know? Or any contact with actual black people like if there were kids who were coming into the Carmel school district from Seaside, and they grew up with Black and Brown people and that was who they were coming from, it would, it would feel different from these like rich privileged White kids from Carmel, who like, would never talk to a Black person, like would, and would talk shit about Seaside where they live, you know, like they're like, it feels very different to me.
I mean, but in the context of, you know, appreciation and participation, like somebody like Hanif Abdurraqib, something that he talked a lot about in that interview on Commonplace with Stuti Sharma, and something that I've known about him previously, is he's like super into punk, right? Which is, is a genre of music that I had understood stereotypically as like a working class White genre of music. But he, you know, grew up in the Midwest, would drive around going to punk shows, and he's written about this about like there being a racial dynamic at punk shows and being like one of the few Black kids at a punk show was a thing for him, but also it was like, that was a thing that resonated with him and that he wanted to participate in.
And it meant something to him, just in the same way that like he, A Tribe Called Quest meant enough to him that like, as an adult, he wrote a whole book about Tribe Called Quest. So, like, I don't think that necessarily that there is anything weird or, or, or even weird or unnatural or developmentally inappropriate about as a young person trying different things out, but I think that, you know, just because it's natural doesn't mean it's okay [laughs], you know, and I think that this is something that plays in a lot, but even with somebody at my stage of life where you mentioned the like, gay cowboy stuff, right? Like one of my favorite albums of the past couple of years is by an artist called Orville Peck. Do you know Orville Peck?
RACHEL ZUCKER: No.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Okay, so he's, that's a pseudonym. He is, he does this music that is, it's sort of alt country. He performs with a mask on so that you don't know his identity. Most often it's like a, like a mask or his eyes that has like a fringe that comes down the front.
[45:06]
It's very theatrical and his music has a very theatrical edge to it. His, his voice has a lot of like, late era Elvis to it as well. It's, I don't know if it's camp, but it's like going right up to the line of being camp. It's very presentational, and it's very gay, you know? And I love that album. Like the, especially his album, “Bronco.” I think that was last year or the year before, like I will totally sing along to that, to that album. I think it's fantastic. I don't know why that one hits me more, and why I feel more comfortable connecting or why I do connect with it more with that one than with “Rise of a Midwest Princess,” “Rise and Fall of a Midwest Princess”? I think that's what it's called. But, you know, this is definitely an identity that I don't share, and yet it is something that I enjoy quite a bit. I think in a lot of the sort of theatricality of it, it's very similar to what Chappell Roan is doing. It's different in genre a little bit, but I think a lot of the concerns are the same.
And I don't know, but like, at the same time, like, I love that album. There is something that I feel like I have to, I do feel like I have to be a little careful about how I engage with it because I don't want to be “that guy,” you know?
RACHEL ZUCKER: Okay. All right. Two things. One, I think you and I believe in an authentic self. And I'm not sure, I've said this a bunch of times, but I wonder to what extent the whole idea of an “authentic self “ is a product of White supremacy and this idea, you know, of, of Whiteness that you have to be careful to like be yourself or to, you know, to not overstep. And so that's just, I'm putting this over here for a second.
I'm also remembering, I want to recommend Julian Talamantez Brolaski, who's a queer country singer and a poet. I think you might like their album. And I was, I just had a memory of you talking about the gentle male characters on Star Trek, on, on Discovery in particular, and your gratitude for the fact that there are these, like, kind of gentle, but masculine characters. And I was, you know, I wonder if we were not so straight. I know you're not White, but if we were not so White adjacent and so straight, if we would feel more comfortable sort of saying this music is a gender I put on, this music is a gender expression or, a performance that I engage in, in order to express this part of my masculinity or this part of my femininity.
So, you know, the fierceness, but also the girlishness and the femininity of Chappell Roan. Once I went back to it, I don't identify naturally and historically in my own life as very femme, but I'm interested in that. And I'm increasingly interested in that, especially as I have become invisible to the male gaze, in my middle aged-ness and my Crone stage. There's something about like this, I'm very drawn to an expression of femininity that I don't ordinarily engage with. And so if I, if I gave myself more permission to be like, this is a dress I can put on, an actual dress, I don't feel comfortable putting on. You know, like a literal dress. I don't wear high heels. I don't, you know, I hardly wear makeup. I hardly do that stuff, but the singing of the music, or the, you know, the listening to it and the, and the kind of like participation in it, and maybe even going to a concert, you know, that might be my way of expressing my femininity or my femme-ness or my rage, my female rage or, you know, and I, so I don't know, I wonder if any of that lands for you?
I just, I just think you and I have talked about this so much, like, not wanting to be “that guy” is something I really like about you and something I really identify with and share. But I just wonder if there's something that's not just uptight about that, because we both can be a little bit uptight, but something actually White centric about it for lack, or cis centric or, or straight centric? I don't know.
[50:05]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: I mean, I think I get what you're putting down [laughs]. And I think there's definitely something to it. I sometimes, or maybe not even sometimes, maybe often, I get so wrapped up in trying to make sure that I'm not harming people, that the way that I can go about doing that, can harm people. Like, for example, I remember a long time ago at this point, I had a Korean woman, a Korean American woman on Keep the Channel Open. And we were talking about her memoir and I, and I should say, like, we're, we're, I think we're friends. I don't know. I don't actually know if we're friends. We're certainly friendly, but, you know, as you probably know, there is like a, a long fraught history between Japanese people and Korean people and between Japanese Americans and Korean Americans. Like it's, even though like White America sees all Asian Americans as being the same, like, there is a really fraught history between Koreans and Japanese, and that is not something that I feel would be responsible to ignore or to try to erase that difference, right? At the same time when I was talking to her about this memoir, and it's not just a memoir about, because it's a memoir that's about, and now I might actually be fucking this up I might be actually conflating two different Korean American women that I was talking to which is really fucked up [Rachel laughs].
I think I might have done this twice. Oh, fuck me, but here, I'm trying to talk about the ways that I connect with the work and also make it obvious to the person that I'm talking to that I recognize that I am not “that person,” right? This isn't my story, right? And I know, I know, I can remember her voice, like the, the, the memoirist that I'm talking about, like, I remember her kind of like hesitating a little bit and being like, “how can I, how do I, how do I respond to this kind of thing?” Like, cause now I'm putting her in an awkward position, right? Because she's not writing this memoir in order to keep people from reading it. You know, she's not writing the memoir in order for me to, for me to make it about my discomfort about our like, perceived ethnic differences, you know? And for me to put that out there in the interview is really not doing anything other than maybe assuaging my own ethnic guilt and making it her problem, you know, but it comes from a place of me not wanting to be “that guy.” And I think that that is very similar to the kind of like, respectful distance that you're talking about.
And I don't think that that comes from a place of Whiteness exactly, but it does come from a power differential, right? And, and a recognition of the, the difference between like that in the, in the comparison between Japanese and Koreans, whether in those countries or this country that the Japanese community, the Japanese power structure, they are the powerful part of, of that dynamic. I think that, you know, to kind of go back to something you were talking about before, you were talking about this idea that, you're not trying to say it's, it's easy, not trying to like make light of the, the very real like oppressions and dangers of being queer, of being a lesbian, as compared to being a straight woman, but that there is something attractive, there's something that seems more, more liberated about that.
And I think that that is real. I think that it's really important to hold, like, if we're going to talk about that, and I want to talk about that, but also making it really clear that neither one of us believes or wants to minimize the, the real political material disadvantages and oppressions that queer people or, or people in these marginalized communities that we aren't a part of, right? Like I want to make that really clear to anybody who's listening.
At the same time, like I can speak about this as a non White person. Right? There have been times when I feel like, when I feel like because I'm not White, that I feel really glad that I'm not White, because I feel like that does afford me a certain freedom to talk about certain things in a way where it can just be assumed that I'm above criticism, you know, that I have a certain freedom to talk about some, not all racial issues, because obviously like not every racial group has the same experience, but in the ways that I can talk about my own experiences and the ways that I can talk about oppressions that I have personally experienced, the ways that these politics affect my community and the communities of people who look like me, like I do, like, I have to acknowledge that there is a freedom to that, that is a meaningful and powerful thing for me.
[55:51]
And I also experience a desire to, like, like as a man, for example, like there are ways that I do not feel that freedom to talk about gender and to talk about patriarchy or masculinity or femininity or any of those things in a way where I don't feel like I have to qualify everything that I'm saying or over explain that I understand, you know, my privilege, that I don't have to make some kind of a performance out of showing that I understand these things. And that I wish that I had, like, if I'm being honest, that I do kind of feel envious of women for having that freedom. Right. And I can recognize that, okay, yet I am envious of women for having this one freedom that I don't have while realistically, I have all of these other freedoms that they don't have. And so like in any kind of a fair way, it would be like completely ridiculous and, and frankly offensive for me to say like, women have it better, right?
RACHEL ZUCKER: We do. In some ways.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: But in maybe these, these very specific isolated ways, like, one consequence of being marginalized or being oppressed is that it does give you this, this particular kind of freedom.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Yes. Yes. And I think that's what, I think that's what some young white people are, are craving and wanting and longing for when they get very identified, say with Black culture. You know, I, I'm too scared, I, you know, to, I, I'm not, I'm not called in that direction. And even if I were, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that because that's just not like, because of when, I mean, I think that there's like a historical like liberal kind of phase right around, you know, the most, let's all be colorblind and identify across difference as if there's no difference. And that's how we can end racism. And that's how we can, you know, we're just, we're just people. We're just people.
Okay. That didn't work. You know, great idea, also terrible idea, and then that kind of got a course correction with a much more understanding of appropriation and some of the drawbacks and dangers of identification, even imaginative identification, and the cringiness and the, you know, theft and trespass of all of that.
And now I think we're coming out to, I hope, a more intersectional, kind of like playful, complex relationship between identification and appropriation. But because of my age, and I think this is similar for you, like I, I'm still, so anxious about the over identification or appropriation that I have given myself very little freedom to be anything other than who I think I'm supposed to be, and who I am, and who like, what is my identity? Like, I'm very fixed in that. So I think that's like what you're, yeah, I don't know. That's what's coming up for me.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Well, I just, you know, I think there have been a lot of people who I respect very greatly who, who, you know, want to call into question the, the, the way that we practice identity politics and the politics of representation and things like, like Brandon Taylor, for example, has talked about this both, you know, in essay and just, you know, on Twitter a lot over the past many years, that maybe, maybe this isn't the end all be all of this conversation.
[1:00:04]
I think that they're like, you know, you said about the authentic self. I don't know that I believe in the authentic self mainly because I don't necessarily believe that there is a single self, and I don't believe that there is a stable self. I think all of these things are in flux and that we have many parts of ourselves that are constantly like, you know, shifting around what, what in primacy, even from day to day or hour to hour, for sure.
On the other hand, I do think that there are ways that to be in the world that are very inauthentic. And I think that if you or I enjoy hip hop, for example, and sing along, leaving the N words out with a, with a hip hop song, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think appreciating Black people and their culture, you know, things like, I don't know, eating barbecue, for example, like that's, there's nothing wrong with that.
I do think that both of us are aware that there are, there are certain lines that would be both inauthentic for us, and would also be offensive and probably harmful. Like if either one of us to try to pull some kind of a Rachel Dolezal kind of thing and darken our skin and crimp our hair and start wearing dashikis all over the place and claiming that we were Black, that would be like horrific, you know, that would be like, I mean, to put it extremely mildly, like that would be inappropriate and inauthentic [laughs]. But that there, that there is like, you know, so there's limits. We don't know exactly where they are. They're gray areas. But also like, yeah, I think that this question of, you know, course correcting, I think that we are at least some segment of our culture is sort of coming to a more complex understanding of these things. And I think that's probably a good thing. I think I probably am still going to be a little uncomfortable about like singing along with certain kinds of songs when other people are around [laughs].
RACHEL ZUCKER: All right. Well, this was very fun. I enjoyed this.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Me too.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I don't know why. I don't mean to sound surprised.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: We still don’t have a tagline yet.
RACHEL ZUCKER: I know. [Laughs]. I felt like I was going to come up with one right on the spot. I don't have one.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: All right. I'll talk to you later.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Awesome. All right. Have a great day.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Bye.
[Music]
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: You've been listening to Hey, It’s Me with Rachel Zucker and Mike Sakasegawa.
RACHEL ZUCKER: Hey, It's Me is a production of Rachel Zucker and Likewise Media.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: Editing on this episode is by Mike Sakasegawa. Music is by Podington Bear, and transcription help is by Leigh Sugar
RACHEL ZUCKER: You can find more information about the show, including contact information and transcripts, at heyitsmepodcast.com.
MIKE SAKASEGAWA: If you'd like to hear more from us, you can find Rachel's other show, Commonplace, at Commonplace.today.
RACHEL ZUCKER: And you can find Mike's other show, Keep the Channel Open, at keepthechannelopen.com. Thanks for spending this time with us.
Take care.